Contemporary Counterfeits

I agree. Contemporary is confusing. And I believe Henning nickels are contemporary counterfeits.

I would argue that it is a matter of how the piece was used not when. If it was made to deceive merchants and "blend" in with real coins, than it is a counterfeit. Modern fakes are made to deceive those in numistatics and be sold as real collectable coins. Therefore I do not consider modern fakes of today counterfeits. China isnt making coins to spend in circulation.

 

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The idea that the difference between contemporary and modern can be determined by the intended use of the piece (deceive general public or deceive numismatists) is another interesting way to think about it.

Where that falls down IMO is that it requires someone to determine the intent of the counterfeiter. It may seem obvious, but we can't really get inside the counterfeiter's head. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to use as supportive evidence but maybe not conclusive.

 

was hoping to see a reply like this..THANKS!

This my friends is EXACTLY what I was writing about.

 

@howards posted: "The idea that the difference between contemporary and modern can be determined by the intended use of the piece (deceive general public or deceive numismatists) is another interesting way to think about it.

Where that falls down IMO is that it requires someone to determine the intent of the counterfeiter. It may seem obvious, but we can't really get inside the counterfeiter's head."
And on it goes...THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I POSTED ABOUT!!! Shall we continue to make this even more confusing..


This has nothing to do with the determination that a counterfeit is contemporary or not!!! BTW, I am not going to post this as an opinion because IT IS A FACT.

I'll try again... The ONLY thing that determines if a counterfeit is contemporary or not is WHEN IT WAS USED and WHAT GENUINE COINS WERE USED AT THE SAME TIME! PERIOD!

 

So how do you classify an 1861 three cent silver counterfeit created in 1875 when the coin series ended in 1872 (business strikes)???

 

@howards posted: IMO, that's too subjective a definition. "Whatever time period we wish to consider" leaves it up to the reader to pick the time frame. The time frame is not up to the reader - it is set by definition to be the period during which the genuine coins were manufactured and circulated.

See, it is not complicated after all. That is exactly what I posted if you read it again. Contemporary counterfeits circulated with the similar coins that were in circulation AT THE TIME - whatever time period we wish to consider - 1600's, 1700's, 1900's - get it now?

@howards wrote: "An interesting case to consider is the Henning counterfeit Jefferson nickels. Jefferson nickels are still a currently manufactured and circulating design. So are the Hennings modern counterfeits or contemporary?"

OMG!

"I think you can make good arguments either way." Really? This from a nickel expert, really? For me, the (weasel) way out of that is to call them Henning counterfeits. If you pushed me, I'd side with contemporary rather than modern.

That's what they ARE - contemporary.

"Looking up the word "contemporary" in the dictionary is not a useful way to resolve this. Like many other disciplines, numismatics uses language in a specialized way."

Contemporary is not an ambiguous word. This is not a case of: It all depends on what "is" is?

 

Real simple @Burton Strauss III I received a 1944 wheat ear reverse Lincoln cent this week. They stopped making them in 1959. Any more questions?

The 1861 would be considered a contemporary counterfeit. Now I am VERY CURIOUS how you know that fake was made in 1875 or are you just making an example?

 

This thread is a great example of why I like to refer to fakes made for circulation as counterfeits, and those meant to fool collectors as forgeries.
There is much less confusion with this terminology.

And in this sense the Hennings are counterfeits

 

There is no requirement that the coin actually be uttered in order for it to be counterfeit as that term is used legally. The distinction you make doesn't make sense to me, and it contradicts the case law I have cited in other threads (albeit for different purposes). All of the listed examples are counterfeit coins.

The word "contemporary" means happening or existing at the same time, so you cannot logically divorce the temporal aspect. A piece produced while the series was actively in production would absolutely qualify. As for a strict cut-off, I don't think there is one. I would argue that it would qualify as long as the piece it is emulating regularly circulated regardless of whether the counterfeiter intended to fool collectors or introduce the counterfeit into commerce.

 

Again confusing the definition of the word (in this case the legal definition) with the numismatic one.

They may all be counterfeit in law, but there IS a numismatic difference between a Henning nickel (or my made in 1875 counterfeit 3cs) and a made last month Morgan dollar.

 

yes, it is a fake, and possibly a contemporary one

 

@Burton Strauss III How do you know that your 1861 contemporary counterfeit 3c was made in 1875?

This is also the distinction made in the Macmillan Encyclopedic Dictionary of Numismatics by Richard Doty that was published in 1982.

 

I would say his 1861 three cent was made sometime after 1865, simply because who had time to counterfeit coins during the civil war? Now I could be wrong about that, but it just seems like pretty much everybody was at war, or making supplies for war.

 

That's a good one.
You have got to be kidding, right?

 

Well think about it. There was a major shortage of coins. Even with the tokens being made, what merchant wouldnt be suspicious of every coin coming in from a customer? I mean im only speculating of course and not saying counterfeits werent made, just saying not as many.

 

Any clues whether this is modern or contemporary?

 

I think the best clue lies in the metal content.

You find out what a real one was made of, and how close this counterfeit is to the real thing.

Typically, you can then determine when it was made based on the content and when it would have plausibly been made in order to pass it as real.

At least, that's how I do it.

 

Vintage/modern, not contemporary. These are very common. Search 1868 10 escudo on eBay and you'll see what I mean

 

Wow, feeling a little dense. I didn't think it was anything too interesting but certainly wouldn't have thought it was that common.

 

They are about the same as the British spade/guinea vintage copies