Contemporary Counterfeits

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Evan8, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. deacon2828

    deacon2828 Active Member

    Here are two modern Counterfeit's from china. Hope this helps. modern counterfeit.jpg
     
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  3. easj3699

    easj3699 Well-Known Member

    I'm asking because I discovered this coin in a large lot of stuff I bought the other day. Anybody have opinions on modern or contemporary? It does not have a casting line on the rim.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  4. howards

    howards Shield Nickel Nut

    Contemporary false die counterfeits usually have distorted design features, like the shield nickel above. Modern (mostly Chinese) counterfeits look a lot more like the real thing.

    Modern counterfeiters have better tools for cloning designs.

    Note that I am not talking about contemporary cast counterfeits, which can be a pretty faithful reproduction of the original coin.
     
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  5. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    I think this is real. It's just corroded. Very common on large cents
     
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  6. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    Neat. At a glance, the coin pictured looks real, and lightly circulated. I would not have questioned it. :)

    The giveaway appears to be the doubling on the ear in the absence of any other doubling anywhere else, right? Neither machine doubling, nor hub doubling would produce that effect, IIRC. So, I'm guessing the discovery story is that someone looked at the coin and said "huh, doubled ear," tried to VAM it, couldn't find a match, then scrutinized the coin more thoroughly for doubling and didn't find anything.

    Is that even close, or am I full of road apples? :p
     
  7. easj3699

    easj3699 Well-Known Member

    Date doesn't look right to me, it is a gram shy in weight, and I'm fairly certain it's not made of copper.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  8. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The 1817 looks real to me, it's a N-17 which is an R-5- coin
     
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  9. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    From what I can see from the pics, I think it looks ok. Corrosion would explain it being too light cause corrosion is going to eat away the metal. But like I said, it looks ok in your pics. The date looks normal compared to ones I looked at on coinfacts. Even the star alignment appears alright. With that being said, i cannot tell the newcome variety from the pics. So i suggest your next step is to determine the newcome variety if you can. That wont guarantee its authenticity but it helps.

    To me, it just doesnt look like a cast counterfeit. But im not always right, thats just my opinion based on your pics.
     
  10. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    Oops I didnt see this before I posted.
     
  11. Colonialjohn

    Colonialjohn Active Member

    Silver Electrodeposition Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...erdinand-vii-8-reales-1821-rg-/a/3029-31661.s

    See the reverse. The silver is peeling off the back of the coin. This may be the highest graded or most well preserved coin exhibiting silver electrodeposition for an Eight Reale denomination. Something that goes beyond Sheffield silver plating as described in the Amazon Gurney/Nichols/Lorenzo (GNL) CC8R book. To be explained further in my new book (Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies - 25th Anniversary Edition). We see this process starting after 1840 since this process was developed only around this time period (i.e., scientific reference literature checks) and seen in the Cap and Rays Eight Reales series. Difficult to detect if the peeling is not exhibited near the rim areas on UNC/AU examples which may show the underneath base alloy which in most cases like the Sheffield Counterfeit 8 Reales from Birmingham being a high copper alloy. Why this Eric P. Newman coin was not properly cataloged by him as a contemporary circulating counterfeit is unknown - hence the usual - slabbed by PCGS as a regal. Also interesting this coin in hand is like GEM or MS65- reduced I guess to "61" due to this surface effect. INCREDIBLE. Discussed in my new book - Forgotten Book out soon as a new class of counterfeits. Yes- you guessed it - probably hundreds of Cap and Rays which are silver electrodeposited - some may show the indicators near the tops of the rim areas. Silver electrodeposited pieces are different from Sheffield in that this silver deposit is VERY THIN so its more difficult to spot on circulated coins since most silvering may have disappeared or is only detected in small percentages by XRF (i.e., 1-5%) which is often not detectable by the naked eye. Check the TOP OF THE EDGES on Cap and Rays moving forward in all major auction lot viewings for MS60-65 examples for SILVER PEELING and base metal exposure. Robert Gurney is also producing a new book on these Cap and Rays CC's which is currently in production.

    John Lorenzo
    Numismatist
    United States.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Most often by the crude design and letters. Modern fakes resemble actual coins more closely.
     
  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    John,

    I am going to disagree with you by posing some questions; but before I do, I want all here who do not know of your work and Bob's in this field to understand that that you are considered to be experts on contemporary counterfeit 8 Reales and Cap/Rays pieces. I have your book and await the next.

    1. The coin was in the Newman Collection as a genuine piece. I'm sure Eric would like to discuss your comments as it is a neat coin either way.

    2. The coin is authenticated by NGC. For what it is worth, I happen to know that NGC does not agree with a lot of your work and conclusions so we'll consider this a draw.

    3. When a coin is in a major auction such as this, we can consider that every dealer/collector who looked at it believed it to be genuine. And anyone here who thinks that dealers/collectors don't look forward to proving the TPGS are idiots is not very informed.

    4. Coloration like this happens. We cannot take a specific gravity test or weigh the coin. As a teen, I worked in a large shop that did anodizing and electroplating. The coin does not look plated to me.

    While I happen to agree with you and Bob that possibly lots of fakes have been slabbed, this does not appear to be one. Now some questions? Is this coin in Riddell (my copy is not here)? Have you matched the punch shape of the letters or numerals to known counterfeits?
     
  14. harrync

    harrync Well-Known Member

    Many years ago [1970's] I would occasionally visit a coin store in Inglewood, CA. He had a fabulous contemporary counterfeit collection. One day I come in and they are all gone. His story: the Secret Service came in and confiscated them all. He said they admitted it was stupid, but there had been a formal report to them, and they had no choice but to confiscate them all. Has the law changed since then?
     
  15. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I guess if you stick a C/F under the nose of an agent or report a shop selling them they may be confiscated. Nevertheless, counterfeits are collected, they are in ANA teaching sets, and ICG slabs them. I believe "intent" is the reason they may be taken.
     
  16. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    There is nothing in the law that says you can't hold counterfeits and there is no penalty for doing so, but the law also says that you must surrender them if requested by an authorized person. Not doing so DOES carry penalties. That has been the law for many many years.
     
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  17. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    Here is a shield nickel I bought a while back. The guy argued with me it wasn't counterfeit. I believe it is.

    DSCN9342.JPG DSCN9343.JPG
     
  18. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    Here are two Trade Dollars I picked up today at a Pawn Shop. They both weigh 19.8 grams. Pattern coins.

    DSCN9347.JPG DSCN9348.JPG DSCN9349.JPG DSCN9350.JPG
     
  19. deacon2828

    deacon2828 Active Member

    Does not look like a counterfeit to me ?
     
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  20. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    Why?
     
  21. deacon2828

    deacon2828 Active Member

    The stars on reverse look to be in the correct position.
     
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