Confusion over differentiating circular die cracks, retained die breaks, and die breaks.

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by shaney777, May 15, 2020.

  1. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    How can circular die cracks, retained die breaks, and die breaks be differentiated? What are the characteristics of each? I understand the difference between how a circular die crack and die break looks, but how can a retained die break be differentiated between a circular die crack? If it's the height, how can a retained die break be differentiated from a die break? I know that a retained cud has to show design displacement in order to differentiate it from a rim to rim die crack.
     
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  3. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    I have researched this issue recently and determined, to my satisfaction, there are two basic cases for die cracks/breaks. These two terms are used interchangeably and mean the same thing and it depends upon who wrote the article. A retained die crack is a fissure that has been developed in the die due to the great pressure exerted on the die and the majority of the time, this fissure is filled with the coin material. A variation is catastrophic die crack is when the die develops multiple fractures and the result is a myriad of fissures. This type of crack is normally caught, but some get through. The second case is the bi-level die crack. This type is when the result of a die crack pushes one side of the fissure further into the coin causing an upper and lower position of the material to either side of the crack.

    This is my explanation as I understand the issues.
     
  4. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Simply put, circular die cracks, retained die breaks, and die breaks are nothing more than "garbage terms" made up by someone wanting to sell some garbage coins.
    ~ Chris
     
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  5. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    Thank you for the explanation! I actually haven't heard of those until now. General errors on coins seem far more complicated than die varieties.
     
  6. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    I understand where you are coming from, but these are the official terms used by Mike Diamond to describe aspects of die wear progression. It is important to know the difference because some are rarer, and more valuable, than others.
     
  7. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Rare?!!! What is rare is a 1943 Copper Cent or a 1944 Steel Penny.

    No disrespect intended toward Mike, but did he make up those "official" terms or are you just calling them "official" because they are used in the description? ~ Chris
     
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  8. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Supporter! Supporter

  9. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    I don't mean rare, just some of those errors are rarer than the other. Circular die cracks and retained die breaks are a lot rarer than die breaks. I don't know if Mike came up with the terms, but he uses them, and they're on his site when defining the error. So they are the main terms used to describe the particular error.
     
  10. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    That is my go-to site, but I feel that it doesn't explain enough to answer my questions here. However, a close coin friend did help me today with understanding what a retained die break looks like. It's raised more than the inside of a circular die crack (obviously) but a good bit shorter than a die break.
     
  11. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I just call them cracks and everyone knows the meaning.
     
  12. mikediamond

    mikediamond Coin Collector

    "Circular die crack" is simply a descriptive term. It can be used for the die crack that preceded the formation of a circular die chip on the 2019-P Lowell National Historic Park quarter dollar. It can also be used for any die crack that forms a circle. A retained die break is a chunk of the die that sinks inward, leaving the design on the coin resting on a low plateau. These can be divided into retained interior die breaks (both freestanding and ones connected to the rim by one or more die cracks) and retained corner die breaks (i.e., retained cuds). A die break is a void in the die face cause by brittle failure. On the coin, these can take the form of die chips, interior die breaks, and cuds. Are there any more "garbage terms" you'd like help with, Chris?
     
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  13. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    You call die breaks cracks as well?!
     
  14. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    Thank you! <3 I thought of the pre die break depression as well, which seems to be common on modern nickels and quarters. It is incused on the coin, so it must be raised on the die. This would mean that sometimes the break is raised on the die, but other times it's incused on the die (retained die break). I find it odd that breaks wouldn't always be one way or the other.
     
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  15. mikediamond

    mikediamond Coin Collector

    Yes, sometime subsurface plastic deformation can take strange forms. For example, you sometimes get a section of design sitting on a sunken island or a sunken arc (kind of like a reverse retained cud). In such instances, my presumption is that the area surrounding the the area cordoned off by the crack sunk in slightly. In other cases, the affected area actually protrudes beyond the plane of the die face, perhaps propped up be debris trapped between the retained cud and the intact portion of the die neck.
     
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  16. shaney777

    shaney777 Member

    You are awesome!!
     
  17. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else

    Do you have any images of a retained interior die break in the field? It might explain the oddness i have on an Ike dollar
     
  18. mikediamond

    mikediamond Coin Collector

    I haven't yet encountered a retained interior die break in the field. All those I've seen appear within the design.
     
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