Confused about Leu bidding

I'm sure there's a logical answer for how I was outbid on a coin this morning at Leu, but right now I'm confused.

Since I knew I would be traveling at the time of the auction, I bid on the coin before I left. At the time I bid, the highest bid was 380 CHF. I then bid 700 CHF, which put the maximum at 550. A few days later, while on vacation, I decided to up my bid to 550 CHF. Of course, this didn't increase the maximum bid, but their site continued to show that I was winning the coin at 550.

This morning, after finally arriving home, I found that I'd lost it with a winning bid of 755. Here's the bidding history:

Bidder 4 755 CHF 27-Feb-22 10:59:01
kirispupis 750 CHF 18-Feb-22 01:04:43
Bidder 4 605 CHF 27-Feb-22 10:58:48
Bidder 2 500 CHF 09-Feb-22 03:00:08
Bidder 3 380 CHF 15-Feb-22 03:47:59
Bidder 3 340 CHF 15-Feb-22 03:47:51
Bidder 3 300 CHF 15-Feb-22 03:47:32
Bidder 3 200 CHF 15-Feb-22 03:47:29
Bidder 3 150 CHF 15-Feb-22 03:47:26
Bidder 3 100 CHF 14-Feb-22 17:41:54
Bidder 1 50 CHF 03-Feb-22 14:36:55

I'm confused. How can the winning bidder just bid 5 over? Wouldn't they have to go up to 800 per bid increments? It's also weird that my earlier bid at 700 isn't there, but it clearly shows my bid for 750 came far before the winning bid.

Per Leu's terms:

The minimum bid increments for the bidding process are:

0 – 99 → 5
100 – 199 → 10
200 – 499 → 20
500 – 999 → 50
1,000 – 1,999 → 100
2,000 – 4,999 → 200
5,000 – 9,999 → 500
10,000 – 19,999 → 1,000
20,000 – 49,999 → 2,000
50,000 – 99,999 → 5,000
100,000 – 199,999 → 10,000

In rare cases, bidders may be outbidded by a lower amount than quoted in the minimum bid increments. This occurs if the maximum bid of the highest bidder is higher than the newly entered lower bid by a lower amount than the minimum bid increment.

So, from what I gather, if two bids are placed at the same time - say one for 750 and one for 755, this can happen. However, my bid was placed much earlier.

For future bidding I'd just like to understand what happened. I'm not completely heartbroken over losing the coin, as given the condition 750 was a high bid. I bid a bit aggressively, though, since I've now lost this type three times at auction.

 

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Another new week starts, another thread regarding overseas auction problems.

Sorry, I had too.....

 

FWIW, this is the first time for me something looks weird on an auction. I've purchased with Leu before without issues. There's probably some logical explanation for this. I'd just like to understand what.

Since I'm an engineer by trade, I have to understand what the issue is before I automatically increase my bids by 5 or 10 in future auctions.

 

It depends on whether the increment is applied to the current price. This approach used to work in cng eauctions, but it doesn't anymore

The timestamp displayed look like the time when your bid was entered into the system, not when it was actually applied live. I like the bidding history on vauctions, but found other like Leu and Naville more difficult to interpret

 

I think I know what happened.

At some point after Bidder 2's 500 CHF was recorded, another (unknown) individual made a specific bid of 555 CHF, maybe to outbid anyone whose maximum bid was 550 CHF (which I assume is not prohibited since it's more than the 50 CHF increment). Since Bidder 4's maximum price was, say 800 CHF, his bid was automatically increased to 605 CHF = 555 CHF + one 50 CHF increment.

When you entered a maximum of 750 CHF, since Bidder 4's maximum was higher than yours, the system automatically increased Bidder 4's maximum by three 50 CHF increments to 755 CHF.

Make sense?

 

Thanks, but this doesn't quite make sense, since when I put my initial max bid of 700 CHF, I was shown as the highest bidder. I remained the highest bidder when I entered 750. These were all placed several days before the auction. If there was a higher bid at the time, wouldn't it have shown that I wasn't the highest bidder?

 

I don't understand what you mean by "...since when I put my initial max bid of 700 CHF, I was shown as the highest bidder."

Where in the bidding sequence below does it show "kirispupis 700 CHF?" I only see "kirispupis 750 CHF 18-Feb-22."


Since I don't bid in these auctions I'm not familiar with how they appear online and I'm assuming that the above bidding sequence you posted is an exact replica of what the other bidders saw.

I think it would be helpful to show exactly what the bidding site presented to bidders, on screen, for the entire auction all the way to the hammer.

 

I hope this is a good lesson for you and you stop placing prebids from now on. Bidder 4 bid 755 at your current bid of 650 and so rightfully cliod you. There is nothing wrong with the bidding system.

 

This is exactly the same algorithm developed in the past for auctiones.ch and I think the developer is a member in ct.

 

That's one oddity of their bidding system. I placed two bids - one for 700 over a week before the auction and one for 750 a few days before the auction. However, their history only shows the second bid - placed on the time of the first bid.

Of course I never made a screen shot at the time, but I was the highest bidder at the time of both bids. That's why I'm so confused.

 

The terminology being used here is not well defined.

I assume that a bidder's maximum bid is kept hidden at all times.

Thus, it is critical to show (1) the exact sequence of bids that were posted on the website for all bidders to see, with the exact data that was posted, and (2) the timing of your increases to your maximum bid that was (I assume) not shown to the other bidders in the auction.

It appears that at some point the maximum bid was 605 CHF. Was that your bid? Are you bidder 4?

 

Normally I don't place prebids, but given that the auction occurred while I was traveling, I did so. I couldn't trust the connection either on a boat in the middle of the Caribbean or on a plane.

Note that my prebid was 750, not 650. The winning bid was 755.

In the previous Leu auction, I placed 6 pre-bids due to a conflict where I knew I couldn't track live, and I won all six (and only one at my max). In this auction I went one for two.

 

Bidder 4 bid 605 at your current bid of 550. Your current bid was then 650. He then entered 755 and cliod you. If you don't believe me ask them to explain you. What you only achieved was to let your prebid get tested and lose the coin

 

No, I'm kirispupis. If it helps, the following is what my end of Leu showed.

2/18 (before I bid) - highest bid is 380 CHF
2/18 (after I bid 700 CHF) - highest bid is 550 CHF. I'm winning. My max is 700.
2/25 (after I upped by max to 750) - highest bid is 550. I'm winning. My max is 700.
2/27 - Hammer price is 755. I lost.

What I'm honestly wondering is if there's a bug in the code that Bidder 4 was aware of. He initially bid 605, which was unsuccessful due to my previous bid of 750. He then somehow sniped it at 755.

 

My bid question, though, is how did a bid of 755 beat a bit of 750 when the bid increment is 50? Wouldn't he have had to bid 800?

 

The important question is, how is it possible for a different bidder (Bidder 4) to be listed as winning at 605 CHF on 2/27 if your maximum bid was 700 as of 2/18?

 

It's entirely possible Bidder 4's max bid was actually much much higher than 755. I think I understand what @pprp is saying. Yes, you had entered a max bid of 750 early enough. I've always wondered why people bid in the middle of any increment (755 rather than 750 or 800) and this illustrates why:

Time A: You up your max to 750, but it's only showing the highest bid at 500 or 550.
However, technically, you have not yet "placed the bid" above 500 (or 550) until someone "raises" you.
Bidder 4 surmises that your max bid is 600. They place 605, so that if the system enters both bids, their 605 beats your 600 when the system enters them simultaneously. (Perhaps it showed you are winning at 605 or 650, but now the increments are 655, 705, 755...)
Time B: It didn't work. You're still winning (I can't tell what the system would show the high bid to be). Bidder 4 surmises that your max bid might be 750 and enters a max bid anywhere between 755 and Infinity.
Time C: It worked. Your 750 was entered against their max bid which was more than 750 (either by 5 or 2,000,000).

That's my suspicion, not having exactly read the details of how they define any differences between proxy bidding, pre-bidding, absentee bidding, live-bidding, book bids, etc.

 

I’ve read before on here and I 100% believe it: Leu house bids people up to their max pre bid shortly prior to lot close but still early enough to allow for additional last minute bidding. I’ve experienced this same type of irregular bidding patterns myself and have noticed it when looking at bid patterns of other coins.

Moral of the story: never ever pre bid on Leu.

 

That's not the winning bid. For comparison, here's one where I did the same exact thing. I initially bid 500, then upped my bid to 550 a few days before. I won the coin at 500. FWIW, the same coin went for 480 the last time it was up for auction.

kirispupis 550 CHF 18-Feb-22 01:04:33
Bidder 4 480 CHF 26-Feb-22 20:12:22
Bidder 4 440 CHF 26-Feb-22 20:12:16
Bidder 3 200 CHF 26-Feb-22 17:17:46
Bidder 2 185 CHF 23-Feb-22 00:00:11
Bidder 2 140 CHF 04-Feb-22 03:08:24
Bidder 1 75 CHF 04-Feb-22 02:01:57

 

Just my experience: I believe I won all three of mine yesterday below my max bid.