Confiscating ancient coins

The coins were most likely seized by I.C.E as it's part of what they do. http://www.ice.gov/news/library/factsheets/cultural-artifacts.htm

 

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I.C.E is part of the department of homeland security so they would most likely identify themselves as agents of homeland security.

 

"You can surmise anything you want. But the coins were seized as part of the on-going seizures of certain foreign coins that come into the US."

Doug,
You may be correct but the CoinWorld article makes clear they got no answers from authorities as to why they were seized. Others on other forums have been guessing customs issues as well as a questionable provenance. I don't claim to know but will be following the story with interest on CoinWorld as they post more information.

I also feel for the other consignors. I have to think that seizure during lot viewing could not have bolstered prices for the coins that were auctioned.

I of course agree with others that such seizure is bad news and bad for the hobby.

 

just sad.. but from my understanding the country of minting (government )can reclaim money issued by saying it was stolen.. or taken from there nations archives..lol Legal or not ..lol it b,s, or they were fake cops flawnting fake ids and badges and just jacked the man.

 

when a country goes bankrupt guess what happens

 

We don't have a choice. They're all idiots.

 

The problem I see with this is that governments don't have a claim to coins once they are released into circulation. They aren't government property past that point. If you hold onto that 1986 dime in your pocket and pass it down through 20 generations of family for some reason, it doesn't become government property regardless of where on earth it ends up. If they start claiming coins where does it end? They are possessions of the people and we are people. Like most everyone here, my ancestors are European, the very people who used the coins in question in most cases.
Guy

 

It is truly sad. The point that needs to be made to your Congressmen, (and if you do not contact thier Washingtion offices after reading this, shame on you), is that countries have the right to do what they wish WITHIN THEIR OWN BORDERS. Once a coin is in the US, there literally is no way of knowing where it was found. Why on EARTH are our law enforcement officials trying to enforce another countries laws? Why are we trying enforcing laws that violate our Constitution, namely right to private property?

If you are a world coin collector, or a US collector, please do not think this does not affect you. If the Chinese now have a limit of about 1900 the coins that are their "cultural heritage", what will stop them from moving that date up to 2000 someday? What is to stop Massachusetts from claiming all colonial coins from that state is their property? This issue is all about the rights of all coin collectors to be able to own coins they have legally purchased. If these actions continue, all coin collections in the US are subject to government confiscation at the whim of the US government.

Chris

P.S. I do not actively collect any of the coins subject to the current laws, so please do not think this is me just protecting my own "turf". This is the most serious issue in coin collecting today, and most collectors are just ignoring it.

 

That is in line with the 1970 Unesco Convention, see http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=13039&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
"For the purposes of this Convention, the term 'cultural property' means property which, on religious or secular grounds, is specifically designated by each State as being of importance for archaeology, prehistory, history, literature, art or science and which belongs to the following categories: (...)
(e) antiquities more than one hundred years old, such as inscriptions, coins and engraved seals"

So currently coins from before 1912 would be affected. And yes, basically I think it is legitimate to prevent the illegal "transfer" of cultural heritage. In such a case it may very well be necessary to do some investigation in the country where such items have been brought to.

The problem with coins, however, is that in many cases there is no way to determine where they circulated, when they were bought by whom etc. Also, as said here before, coins are not only "mass products" but supposed to circulate. What makes sense for some objects does not really make sense for others.

Christian

 

New info, looks like he knew it was recently looted.

http://chasingaphrodite.com/2012/01...nent-surgeon-knew-he-was-selling-looted-coin/

 

It looks like greed may have a chance to create another obsticle to the hobby. I'm afraid the fall out will not be good for the ancient and classical collector, and if proven, could cause the disappearance of many coins from the open market. I'm sad to even see this as a possibility.

 

I knew there had to be something more to the story then just the government seizing coins because there worth a lot without good reason.

 

Good points, sir, and I do agree. The need for confidentiality has never been higher nor, ironically, for government action against the agents of fraud.

So on one hand you have people who have the full rights under the state and federal Constitutions to keep and own what is rightfully theirs and others who do not have a right to keep unlawful gains. It is a hard distinction but vital to be maintained by lawyers and judges and the lawmakers who are supposed to be making the right distinctions.

As usual "silence presumes consent"; so those ripped off need to be vocal about it.

 

There's another point as well.

I don't want to weigh in on the side of "looting cultural heritage" and do not approve of smuggling and breaking laws. But look at the law that made this coin the property of the Italian government. It says that any artifact found in Italy belongs to the Itaian government. Just who died and made the Italian government heir to everything. Who died and took away the property rights of the person who owned the land on which the artifact was found.

If the law was fair it would read that only the Italian government had right of first refusal on the coin. If they wanted it at then let them pay the finder and the owner of the land some sort of commission or reward. Who exactly determines what is "worthy" of being an artifact and what is just bric-a-brac. Who profits when coins are confiscated from Italian citizens and then never go on display or into a museum. Who has possession of those hundreds of collections confiscated from German citizens. Are they just turned over to rich people and the well connected. Are they passed out as change at the museum.

I can understand the willingnbess of the US to enter into treaties with foreign governments on a subject so important as "cultural heritage" but does our signing of such treaties include the hidden arrest of a person who didn't actually steal anything. Yes, if he's guilty of breaking laws then he should be charged and prosecuted but "dealing in stolen goods" is not exactly trading in stolen goods whjen in actuality someone merely prevented the Italian gpovernment from stealing something from its own people and the "dealer in stolen goods" didn't hit anyone over the head.

The bottom line is this is an American citizen who is in technical violation of a treaty signed by an one government to support another government. Citizenship now days just means one has the right to eat pink slime but there was a time when "We the People" actually meant something. Who died and turned it into "we the government"?

It was "We the People" who fought and died in countless wars to maintain things like property rights.

 

Seizure (conquest?) laws have always been ugly. But these days when you read a news report like this, that of the 1933 $20s, etc., it makes it vital to keep secrets or hire lawyers who know how to keep your family secrets and give good advice. On the Langbord case, there had to be a good way for the family to avoid confiscation, probably by getting the coins outside U.S. jurisdiction, not hard to do. Customs agents rarely know the difference between philately and numismatics, let alone the value of rare coins.

BTW, does anyone think that Heritage will ever get its 1870-CC $20 back???