Commemorative showing the Milvian bridge, or does it?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by David@PCC, Jun 5, 2017.

?

What is on the reverse of POP ROMANVS commemoratives?

Poll closed Jun 19, 2017.
  1. Milvian bridge

    36.8%
  2. A temporary pontoon bridge

    10.5%
  3. Nobody knows or ever will

    42.1%
  4. Probably something aliens built

    10.5%
  1. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    This iconic type was on my wish list for a long time and I was finally able to get a decent example a couple months back. I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding it as to whether the bridge on the reverse is actually the Milvian bridge in Rome, site of Constantine's victory over Maxentius, and location of his vision.
    I recently revisited this piece to see if I could come up with a theory of my own. I do not hold high degrees in history or art, only in engineering, so we will see how my theories hold up.
    Most information I could find online had similar accounts for Constantine's battle of the Milvian Bridge so I decided to use the going history of the battle along with trying to use the image on my coin as a guide. Seemed like a reliable source since it was made at a contemporaneous time as the battle. I also decided to use other examples to get the best complete image of the bridge. Well start with my coin:
    20170605_161857.png
    20170605_161925.png Commemorative Series
    AD 330-354
    Constantinople mint
    Struck in celebration of the foundation of Constantinople, AD 330.
    POP ROMANVS, draped bust of Genus left, cornucopia on shoulder / Bridge over river.

    I decided to start with the most common explanation which is this is the Milvian bridge. I was surprised to learn that the bridge still exist
    1200px-Ponte_Milvio_HD.jpg
    This one comes from Wikipedia and is as it looks today. Comparing it to my coin there is little resemblance to it. Of course it has gone through some restorations in the past so I knew I had to find older pictures. One of the oldest I found
    Vasi84ws.jpg
    This sketch by Giuseppe Vasi was published in 1754. Pretty old and shows similarities to the modern one. To me the Milvian bridge does not look like the bridge on my coin, especially the arches. Mine is rather flat where it meets the supports. For now I'm going to conclude it is not the Milvian Bridge. So where do I go now?
    Think I need to look at similar examples.
    milvian.jpg
    This one is from coin week and has more defined supports than mine, in fact most if not all had similar. A few things strike me when comparing the two, first all have an xxxxxxx framework above the walkway which would indicate a wooden structure to me. Secondly most have an almost crooked support which seems strange. They look like /_/ instead of |_|, seems a strange way to build a bridge. Also this one clearly shows water flowing under the right support.
    Ok maybe the engraver is sloppy or it is just a different angle or perspective. I had to look elsewhere.
    88000985.jpg
    This shows a 'typical' stone bridge with arches clearly defined. Why on earth would the engravers depict the bridge on the commemorative as such?
    No we go the historical content. "The stone-built bridge had been reduced in width in order to keep Constantine’s forces back, so Maxentius’s men had crossed the Tiber via an improvised pontoon construction. This had been fine for men and horses making their way slowly and carefully in the days before the battle. As a means of escape during the stress of battle, however, it was wholly inadequate. " from Britannica.com
    The pontoon bridge peaked my interest, so I went in that direction.
    640px-Roman_Pontoon_Bridge,_Column_of_Marcus_Aurelius,_Rome,_Italy.jpg
    This bridge is from Marcus Aurelius over the Danube and shows a lot of similarities to the coins both having the xxxxxxx framework and non arched supports. Artist rendition of the pontoon bridge showing the destroyed Milvian bridge in the background to hinder Constantine.
    milvian-bridge-1.jpg
    We are much closer now except on every coin there are also towers. If a temporary wooden bridge was constructed, would there be towers at each end? I don't have all the answers, but I did find this on pinintetest
    2012-06-17-34-arles-pont-a-bateaux.jpg
    Showing Roman construction pontoon bridge with towers at Arles. Did Constantine or Maxentius have something like this built or connected to the partially destroyed Milvian bridge? I don't have all he answers but I would guess this construction matched pretty darn well with the reverses of these commemoratives.

    I also attached a poll so everyone can judge if my theory is crackpot or grand.
     
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  3. Aethelred

    Aethelred The Old Dead King

    This is the kind of thread that makes this forum so much fun!
     
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  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Nice coin-- fun research and writeup!

    It is a strange looking bridge but so often on ancient coins, artistic license is taken in order to fit the subject on the small round canvas. That said, is it the Milvian bridge? It doesn't seem that likely, although it makes a better story.

    The towers look like the drawbridge towers in your last illustration, but the water is flowing the wrong way.

    Could the coin depict a pontoon bridge? It's a very creative theory. If it is, why would a pop-up/ad-hoc/on-demand bridge be shown on a coin commemorating Constantinople? Maybe there's another story we don't know about. Let's write it ourselves! :D

    My "Milvian Bridge" commemorative:

    [​IMG]
    Commemorative Series under Constantine I
    330 CE; Æ 14.5 mm, 1.16 gm
    Constantinople mint, 1st officina
    Obv: POP ROMANVS; draped bust of Genius left, with cornucopia over shoulder
    Rev: Milvian Bridge over Tiber River; CONS//A
    Ref: RIC VIII 21; LRBC 1066; Vagi 3043
    ex E.E. Clain-Stefanelli collection

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/celebrating-the-site-of-constantine-is-vision-and-victory.280747/
     
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  5. Mikey Zee

    Mikey Zee Delenda Est Carthago

    I thoroughly enjoyed this thread!!! But I'm still confused LOL
     
  6. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  7. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Brilliant write up and research, David@PCC also love your coin and Milvian bridge pics, brought back memories of walking across it last time I was in Rome. Here's my coin not as good as your's and TIF's but there expensive little things. Also a pic of my Valerian bridge Mopsus, Turkey. coin 91603_1486671056.jpg 6Dkng5YoNzb83cX2Lsa9L7Mi4Psbm2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  8. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    I dug up a close up photo I took 20150930_094236.jpg of the arch at one end of the Milvio bridge, I would say looking at the brickwork it does not look that ancient, my guess that part has been refurbished in modern times.
     
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  9. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    I'm unsure other than it might have played some integral part in securing the empire in the battle with Maxentius. Other commemoratives for Constantinople show a wreath and star, I am unsure why those would be chosen as well?
    That's a great Mopsus bridge.
     
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  10. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    The last time I had an amateurish look into this, I decided that the bridge was probably not the Milvian, but it seems to me you've given that theory some legs. I also looked into possible bridges in or near Constantinople during Constantine's time, and the only relevant waterway is the Lykos... which was too small to be bridged in any impressive way. So... if it's an issue that celebrates Constantinople (and thus indirectly Constantine), and it's not a bridge in Constantinople, what other bridge could it be besides the Milvian (with a pontoon span, as you suggest)? (Or it could just be symbolic, as has also been suggested.)
     
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  11. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    why does the coin have to be associated with Rome?
     
  12. KIWITI

    KIWITI Well-Known Member

    Plus, if you read the latin inscription, it starts with: "PIVS SEPTIMVS PONT MAX", that means, Pope Pius VII.
    So, the milvian bridge was restored with a "modern" look, no way to compare with the coin. CONS A should give us a hint (it certainly did to romans) but for now, it eludes us.
     
  13. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

  14. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Great post with some interesting coins and photos. I noticed on one of the representations of the battle of the Milvian bridge we see the chi-rho inscribed on the shields of Constantine's forces, exemplifying Constantine's in hoc signo vinces vision.

    Could it be that the bridges on the commemoratives obliquely refer to this vision and the battle with Maxentius?
     
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  15. KIWITI

    KIWITI Well-Known Member

    Unlikely, the battle was on the bridge, but the vision was not. (If) It happened the day before, probably at his camp.
     
  16. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    Actually the battle occurred on the other side of the bridge. Maxentius for what ever reasons decided to leave the heavily fortified city of Rome cross the bridge and offer battle there. Generally speaking giving battle with a river at your back is a military no-no and Maxentius paid the price. Constantine managed to push back part of Maxentius's army, it routed, and most of the losses occurred when the paniced army tried to cross the bridges a natural choke point. It is little wonder that Constantine would see this as divine intervention. As for the bridge. There is another depiction of a similar looking bridge, this time on aes coins of Trajan. It too has two towers, a single span, but the deck is arched rather than straight on the coins of Trajan. Usually the type is referred to as the "Danube Bridge". However Woytek in his study on the coinage of Trajan suggests the Milvian bridge. As the structure is unnamed there is always the possibility that the bridge is not the Milvian. However, it seems most likely that it is. PS nice coin. trajans17.jpeg
     
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  17. lehmansterms

    lehmansterms Many view intelligence as a hideous deformity

    I have also recently read that scholarship was tending to say the bridge on Trajan's coins was more likely to be the wooden bridge to the island in the Tiber. I'm not too sure about that either, though. If the island formed one of the major support points of the bridge, it would seem like there should be two visible spans. I've also read that this might be a representation of a new bridge which had been built at that time, just upstream of the old bridge, to augment/replace the old bridge which had central buttresses on the island. This would have been part of Trajan's civic building program to revamp the Forum, including Trajan's new forum (with pillar recounting the Dacian campains) basilica, baths and multi-level proto-stripmall built into a concave area in the side of the neighboring hill
     
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  18. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    I did manage to find an even earlier image of the bridge also known as the ponte molle.
    Simon_9_0.jpg
    Was painted by a French painter Claude Lorrain in 1645. I found a few from the early 1600's with very similar images.
    To me CONS would indicate the mint, in this case Constantinople and A being the first workshop/officina. Mine has a theta as the workshop. Many others are recorded.
     
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  19. KIWITI

    KIWITI Well-Known Member

    Perhaps I expressed myself in a wrong way, I meant that the mint mark above the bridge could be of some reference to romans (as in a Golden Bridge postal card with "San Francisco" written on top -so you know where that bridge is-), but not of any help for us now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  20. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    One of the first questions that comes to my mind - was the battle at the Milvian bridge an important event to people of the empire, and specifically to the people of Constantinople?

    The next question - As Constantine established Constantinople as the new capitol he undertook a building program. Were any important bridges built?

    These are my first thoughts about these coins. I suspect they don't actually commemorate the battle but a bridge building project of some importance to Constantinople. With that said, I prefer the version where this coin commemorates the Milvian bridge.

    By the way, nice coins everyone! I'm very jealous and would love one of the type.
     
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  21. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    from an earlier post--


    the medallion from Rome commemorating the Danube bridge--

    Ric298.jpeg
     
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