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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;Curtisimo, post: 2971075, member: 83845&quot;]Guilty until proven innocent???</p><p><br /></p><p>The problem with this is that it attempts to hold finds from 30+ years ago to a <i><u>very recent</u></i> standard of proof.&nbsp; No one doing business back then could have foreseen the need to religiously retain export documents once the coin was out of the source country any more than I thought to retain the paperwork for the warranty on my computer.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Assuming that these coins were stolen just because we don&#039;t know where they were found is highly illogical and seems more like an attempt to back into a preconceived conclusion.&nbsp; The fact is that we know so little about the circumstances of this hoard find that trying to make radical pronouncements on its legality is a pointless exercise.</p><p><br /></p><p>Plus, it is absolutely just as plausible that the coins where stored for many years (maybe decades) and changed hands several times during that period before being offered up at auction.&nbsp; In fact, since only about half the hoard was offered in 1992 it seems fairly likely that multiple changes of ownership occurred.&nbsp; The plausible reasons why this might be the case are practically limitless.&nbsp; Check the history of any of the potential source countries you mention and it is not difficult to find an event that could lead to objects being stored away for safety or otherwise and forgotten for decades.</p><p><br /></p><p>That is not just hypothetical either, I actually own an example from a hoard that was dug up in 1887 but was not brought to auction until 2017.&nbsp; The entire hoard spent more than a century in storage (not a museum!) and the only reason that any information on it was retained at all was the very sensible attitude of the British government to collectors both then and now.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]728901[/ATTACH]</p><p><font size="3">Roman Empire</font></p><p><font size="3">Julian II, AD 360-363</font></p><p><font size="3">AR Siliqua, Lugdunum mint, struck ca. AD 360-361</font></p><p><font size="3">Wt.: 2.23 g</font></p><p><font size="3">Dia.: 18 mm</font></p><p><font size="3">Obv.: FL CL IVLIA NVS P P AVG, pearl-diademed, draped, and cuirassed bust right</font></p><p><font size="3">Rev.: VICTORIA DD NN AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm frond</font></p><p><font size="3">Ref.: LVG. RIC VIII 212; Lyon 259; RSC 58†c, IRBCH 1424</font></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>False... the vast majority of coins are not found on archaeological sites and it is not hard to see why.&nbsp; People who are trying to hide their valuables from other people are not going to be very likely to bury their treasure right in the middle of the forum now are they? My above coin was found buried in a field far removed from any ancient settlements or even roads as far as my research has been able to tell.&nbsp; Any amount of study of documented hoards will show that coins are most often not found in the context of an archaeological site.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>I think it is safe to say that there is no such thing as an ancient coin collector that does not want to know exactly where his/her coin has been from the day it was minted to the day it was bought.</p><p><br /></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000">The problem does not lie with the collector!</span></b> The problem lies with the absolutely unattainable goal of establishing a definitive provenance on the vast majority of coins to the era before photography was easy and widely available enough to make the documentation of cheap coins economical and practically feasible.</p><p><br /></p><p>Take my avatar coin for example.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]728915[/ATTACH]</p><p>This coin has the vintage &quot;cabinet tone&quot; and shows every sign of being in someones mahogany cabinet for decades before it came to me.&nbsp; I have spent countless hours searching through old catalogs for early provenance to this piece but to no avail.&nbsp; Most likely, the circulation wear made this example &quot;not good enough&quot; to warrant a photograph in the 20th century auctions it was most likely sold in at one point or the other.</p><p><br /></p><p>So when a coin like the above didn&#039;t make the cut for expensive early photographs to establish provenance how can you possible expect coins like the below to stand a chance?</p><p>[ATTACH=full]728916[/ATTACH]</p><p>Let&#039;s get real. Ancient coins were commodities for trade (<b><span style="color: #ff0000">actually made to leave their source country/city</span></b>).&nbsp; Ancient coins are not the Mona Lisa or sculptures that were made to stay in their home country and should not be treated the same or held to the same standards for proof of provenance.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>I do not believe that this hobby has been &quot;harmful&quot; to the study of human history one bit.&nbsp; In fact I vehemently contend that this hobby has done as much for the study of our collective cultural heritage as any other branch of academia.</p><p><br /></p><p>I recently read a book called &quot;The History of Persia&quot; and it is amazing how much the author leaned on source information from books on numismatics that were written largely to appeal to collectors!&nbsp; In places where the written record is less complete than in the classical west, coins are one of the best sources of information that is left to us. Look at any of the numismatic research being done today and you will find that information from major auctions are one of the biggest sources that are used.</p><p><br /></p><p>&quot;Ethics&quot; will mean different things to different people but at the end of the day it&#039;s about doing what you think is right as an individual.&nbsp; I research and study my coins.&nbsp; I am a good custodian of them and will pass them on in at least as good of shape as I found them.&nbsp; I can honestly say I feel good about my part in this hobby.&nbsp; If someone feels differently about the hobby or their part in it then perhaps it is not a good hobby for that person to pursue.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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