Coin without any number/figure?

Well, something is wrong in Turkey, perhaps. Last time I was there (a long time ago) I stopped to buy a soda or candy bar (forget which) in a little town in eastern Turkey and they could not make change for a Turkish bill worth about $10. I walked away with few coins but a handful (literally) of small bills about 1x3 inches.

Perhaps Turkey has a problem with coins. Nowhere else I have ever been has done so.

 

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That 1x3 inches bills were municipality bus tickets? Probably so. It is not different than what sometimes happen in a shop anywhere, "hey, we don't have enough coin at this moment, take one more chewing gum". Okay, this too is a problem, but, it is not the problem I'm talking about here. What I am talking here is a general problem, problem all over the world, in all time.

By the way, while we are at it, at the nation/country/etc, let me say somethings more about this. You know tossing money, flip flop. What is said? "head" or tail" in English. Head? It is about observed, front face. Tail? It is reverse, back face. What do exist in almost all of "head" face of coins in the world? Usually, some figures, portraits of king/queen/royal/general/national character/etc as "head". This is same in almost all coins in whole world in all time. If you see and yes you see its head face of coin first. Then, what do people understand from a coin when you look at a coin? I'll tell. Coin is art for them... And, there is their belittleing back of coin by calling it "tail"... Still, there is hope. Without knowing, people are aware of "tail" of coin which has "number", that takes people to mathematics, mathematics of money, that's, a universal language. If you are unable to read simplest math/numbers in the coin, you are siding with those "heads" who are belittleing money. Not good.

 

Actually the euro circulation coins do circulate. But since several member states (the latest one is Italy, as from 2018) round cash totals, the two lowest denominations are not really needed in those countries any more.

As for "heads" and "tails" in your later post, I don't really have any problem with the tails. With US coins, it could refer to the tail of the eagle; would also work with coins that have a portrait on one side and, say, a lion on the other side. The ancient Romans used something like "head or ship", in German it is "head or number", and so on.

Christian

 

Answer is in the body of your text in contrasting color.

 

"Kentucky", ok, I got your warnin/critic as you repeated it, "incomprehensibility" about what I'm talking. Also not to go off the topic, lets read this said by "chrisild" :

Is this comprehensible? What do you/people understand from these words? First, he says "the euro coins do circulate" and then, "some states, eg Italy, stopping circulating some coins, as they are not really needed anymore."

You speak the same native language, English. Did you understand what he told? What did he tell? The euro coins are circulating or not? (ps: "chrisild", please, do not take this about yourself only, about people in general.)

As for (my) condescending (some people here who may not be a graduate from elementary school). It (my condescending them) is your claim, your (wrong) take. Quite contrary. I've learnt a lot from some people who even do not know to read&write, but, who are knowledgable about the money & coin that professors do not know. (talking here without generalizing.)

Ok, it is late here in this part of the earth, good evening.

 

@ErolGarip It might be an interesting subject, but it is sometimes hard for me to grasp what it is that you are trying to say. In the United States, we started off with an idea to have a currency that had a base unit of a dollar. That dollar would be split into 100 cents (from the Latin centum - 100) this being further split into denominations of 200 half-cents, 20 half-dimes, 10 dimes, 4 quarters or two half-dollars. There's math. At this point in US history, we have also had 20 cent pieces, two cent pieces and two different kinds of three cent pieces. All of these are still legal currency, although the 20 cent piece and the two and three cent pieces no longer circulate and the half-dime was replaced by a nickel. Soon, possibly, due to increased prices the cent coin may disappear. Currency issues come and go as demand dictates. Then there's paper money...

 

Ok, lets stay at the "comprehensibility". Some money already available in the world: (we are on the internet, a global community, and lets our criteria here for "comprehensible" be the more people understand the more comprehensible.)

US: ... 10dollar, 5dollar, 1dollar and coins, half dollar, quarter, 20cent, dime, 3cent, 2cent, 1cent, half cent... (too much math!, thanks god, US coins are not circulating in the world. the truth is, just confusing minds of world people, except Erol) - Conclusion: incomprehensible. (also, some of those coins are not circulating.)

Europe: ... 10euro, 5euro, and coins, 1euro, 50cent, 20cent, 10cent, 5cent, 2cent, 1cent. - Conclusion: more comprehensible. (some minor coins are not circulating. Europe with two units "euro" and "cent" is similar to the world average with two money units. Advantage to Europe, but, particularly Germany where they are closer to the reality/math of money and we see this also in their "head or number.")

Japan: ... 2000yen, 1000yen, and coins, 500yen, 100yen, 50yen, 10yen, 5yen, 1yen - conclusion: most comprehensible. (notice that they cancelled "sen" which corresponds to "cent", appreciatable due to simplifying, also considering that Japans are highly conservative community liking to preserve things. But, we see here that preserving everythings about the money don't work, only thing to be preserved about the money is the mathematics in it and Japan done that by simplifying, by omitting "sen". However, I don't know whether minor coins are circulating there in Japan or not. Since your partner is a Japan you must know it. Which coins are not circulating in practice anymore there?)

Ok, these are how to look at the "comprehensibility" when it is about the money, a thing not universe-ly universal, a thing earth-ly/world-ly universal. Hint: All people in the world from illitireate to literate from healthy to spastics etc have idea on the money, it is the only thing that can have a chance to unite the world. Uniting in kingdom can bring only kings together. Uniting states can bring only states together. Uniting nations can bring only nations together. Etc. Only thing that can unite all is the money. But, not this way, with incomprehensible way that is with less math more art with more literature etc. Half, quarter, cent, dime, anything new to try to be different.. (Btw, there is also an expression "dime girl", isn't it? I learnt it comes from "dime penny", equal to 10penny which was the biggest value money in England in old days, therefore, "dime" was representing "perfectness". Things have changed/been changing, wake up. Anyway, this dime too is another story we can chat about later.)

 

I also need to say this, "Kentucky", you brought here an important issue, "comprehensibility". Ok, what I am trying to tell is highly likely "incomprehensible" when it is about my use of English language. But, when it is about the money, what all are doing is incomprehensible. We see this clearly in US currency, dollar, half, quarter, dime, nickel, cent, whatelse.. Difficult to teach these to any ordinary person in the world, far from simpleness of money/math. Yes, money is a simple thing, people are making it complicated. In Germany, money is simpler than that in USA with their two money name only "euro" and "cent". But, even in Germany, they are not at the stage to say "head or number", yet, even though they are closer to the money reality by saying so "head or number". Before saying "head or number", Germans need to say "head or writing" which is somewhat like here in Turkey, "Tura or Yazi" meaning that "stamp/signature (of head) or writing". Why? Because Germany have, for ex, "5euro", "5cent" etc on one side and "head" on the other side of money. Japans are closer to say "head or number" as their all money name is "yen" only, so, theirs is least mind confusion, more comprehensible, simpler than any currency in the world. By the way, my answer to "head or number" is "number". "Head" is not about the money, it is "the number" which makes it the money.

Having said these, having tried to simplify money by adding/highlighting necessity, i.e. "number" and by subtracting unnecessity, i.e. "head", lets go ahead, by trying to setup a new world currency supposing there is such a target:

Like Japan did by giving a single name as "yen", lets give a one single name to money, let it be "x".
Then, all money in the world will be somethings like this "1x, 2x, 3x,.. 5x,.. 10x,... and so on"... Next step is the mathematics, that's, calculations of which numbers have to be, etc... After then, next step is the engineering, that's, which materials etc have to be, etc... Here, we are at the stage of simplifying the money, its names, heads on them, etc. which are incomprehensible to any ordinary person in the world. But, I can not wait for the "heads" of the world to find/agree on a name "x", so, here, hereafter, I'll call name of "my money" as "x". Now, I am ready to talk here about the mathematics of money in general, of coin in particular as there is also basic engineering in the coin. Now, from now on, about the mathematics in the money. It'll be more fun, you'll see soon. Later. (I need to go out now.)

 

Yes, the circulation coins are circulating here. However, it is up to the single national governments to decide whether cash totals should or can be rounded up/down (to x.y0 or x.y5 - whatever is closer). In some member states this is done, in others there is no such rounding. Practically that means, here in Germany for example (no rounding) we do use 1 and 2 cent coins. In the neighboring Netherlands they are not used - this rounding is not mandatory but pretty much every store does it.

So practically I could use my 1 and 2 ct pieces at a Dutch store, and the cashier would (grudgingly ) accept them. However, if I stayed in NL for a couple of days, or longer, I would not really use those low value coins - no need to. The rounding (in five countries, I think) also means that these national governments - in the euro area, it is the single member states that issue the coins - do not have to mint those coins. Personally I find those two denominations to be a nuisance, but some people seem to believe that doing away with them - along with the decision to phase the €500 note out - is the path to the end of cash. Sigh.

As for heads or tails, Kopf oder Zahl, etc., I would not overestimate that. They are just idiomatic expressions, used no matter what is actually depicted on the coins. As long as both parties know which side is what, the term might as well be "foods or drinks", "man or woman", you name it. Or think of the nicknames that some denominations have in some countries ...

As for the currency name in Japan, blame inflation: The yen used to have sub-units (rin and sen) but those are not used any more. Similarly, the Icelandic krone used to have the sub-unit eyrir (pl. aurar), and had Turkey not introduced the new lira in 2005, you would not have kuruş coins. Many more examples out there. Would it be more practical to have no such sub-units? I don't think so - I just see them as a convenient way of expressing small amounts.

Christian

 

Chrisild, I now see you are not in USA, but, in Germany. While I've been studying the coin (not for collection) in last years, I've read some news about Germany saying that they've imported some trucks of coins (from Austria market or somewhere I don't remember now.) Then, I thought this. Germany is serious, resisting, to keep the small coins in the market. I appreciated their much effort of Germany in that, probably, you are the only country in the world about that. So, Germany deserve some contribution also from people like me outside of Germany. Maybe, Japan too deserve, but, I don't know what's happening about this there, they are circulating small coins really? Or, like all other countries, they too have given up circulating minor coins? It is true that the inflation is the main cause for the smaller coins disappearing. In some places, rate of increase of inflation is faster that makes smaller coins disappear in the market faster. In Germany, it is slower that is making smaller coins disappear slowly. If it is to be generalized to whole world and whole time, general trend is the coin (read small money here for the moment) has always been disappearing in the space and in the time (in the language of mathematical physics field which I too was in some decades ago.) Anyway, we'll be back to this subject later, after closing our talks about other things, after learning current stiuation of the coin world...

Yes, it is understandable that folks have been playing "games" and they have named it "head or tail" or "Kopf or Zahl", etc. But, still, there might be some interesting stories behind them. For example, the expression "dime girl", meant to say beautiful/perfect girl. On the net, I checked the root of "dime", found out it comes from the old Latin "decima", the tenth. So, beauty of a girl was being graded as 10 in a scale 10. See, I arrived at the math again, I see measurement of girl beauty was being made by the math again. It is ok, still we do same or similar measurements. But, there is some fuzzyness in this approach when it is about the money. For example, if the biggest value money/currency in the US now is $100, $100 is perfect? No. If $100 existed some centuries ago, people living then would still have been inventing new idiom like "hundred girl" or "centum girl" using the Latin to indirectly say beautiful girl. It's ok, but, perfectness in the money is not $100, or as some may say nowadays, $10000000000000.... is not, either. It's something else, we'll talk later.

Ps: Chrisild, and Kentucky, I can send a few kurus coin if you sent your shipping address by private msg. No, they are not collection items, not for anything as a return, either, just for this conversation. You know, any money currency (by convertibility) can be sent easily by electronically, but, not the coin which is local property everywhere in the world. So, another aspect of the coin is there is effort that is not only local thing.

 

Now, it is better to leave a leave link as a note here, mathematics on currency
From his money collection web page of a math professor
http://web.olivet.edu/~hathaway/math_money.html

Indeed, they are only a few and almost all of them are minted in last century. Well, there, there is a coin, half panny of Britain dated 1793, with Newton on it, but, it says "token".. ? not coin?

Ok, on the net, Prof Hathaway's webpage was only one of few pages made by a scholar about the math & coin. (ps. he is informed before giving a link to his page here. If he read my email, he may have a say or two here as he is a real mathematican unlike me.)

 

As far as I know, the largest circulating coin in Japan is a 500 yen coin (that translates out to about $5 which is a pretty valuable coin). Yes, there are larger denominations, I have a 100,000 yen coin and a 10,000 yen coin. The reason the sen was dropped was inflation, 100 sen = 1 yen and now a 1 yen coin is tiny and made of aluminum such that you can possibly float one on water if you are careful. I was wondering if you can still find the 1 kurus aluminum coins?

 

Since I am not a coin collector I am not knowledgable about any old coins including old coins here in Turkey. I know of only circulating coins in my life. In my childhood, late 1960s, fully circulating smallest coin was 5 kurus and after new currency in 2005, again fully circulating smallest coin is 5 kurus. Yes, there is also 1 kurus now, but, it is not really fully circulating, except some atm machines give it when you pay electricity etc bill.

So, I don't remember any aluminum 1 kurus coin in my life. I just checked on the net, it was minted in late 1970s, but, I didn't see it then. So, it was minted a few, as commemorative coin partially circulated probably in some big cities like Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir, the cities where I was not in then. If there is any today, antique shop and a coin dealer here in this small town most likely have some. I'll keep it in my mind. Sometimes when I wander around, also in local bazaar, I see some people selling various old things including old coins, I may buy a coin or two for you.

I too am wondering a thing, whether 1 yen is really fully circulating in Japan and also 1 cent in USA or not. My main interest here is current stiuation of circulating coins in the world.

 

The one cent coin circulates in the United States, although very few people outside of collectors really care. Many stores have a dish close to the register with cents in it and a sign that says "Take one - Leave one" in case you need a cent to finish your purchase or are given cents you don't wish to keep. There have been many proposals to do away with the coin, but no action. In Japan, as far as I know, the one yen coin does circulate, but kind of like the American coins, it has little to no value.

 

So, if we summarize the current stiuation of circulating coins in the world, it is more or less same everywhere in the world, what's been happening throughout the history and today is the smaller coin the more negligible...

Still, in some places (USA, Germany and Japan and lets add Turkey too now although limited), there is "challenge", but, also "struggle", in circulating all coins minted...

I feel, I hear his voice, of an old engineer at a corner in a mint, sitting alone, trying to hide his tears, talking himself silently, "hey people, you can not ignore those coins, you can not say they are negligible, we have spent much effort for those coins..."

Ok, old man, professor Dale is invited, a rare mathematican who does have coins. Together, we'll find a way... there is no way...

 

Ok, here is my coin collection, see picture. No, it is not counted as a collection? Why not, it is contemporary coin collection. Anyway, it fits this thread which is about coin and mathematics that is also in his interests of professor Dale (btw, a few of these coins are already on the way, must be already in USA now.)

Now, lets back to the topic, however, lets go ahead, as an expert in mathematican and also an old engineer too may be viewing here now.

Lets start the math with a simple, a classical question. We have these coins: 1kurus, 5kurus, 10kurus, 50kurus, and 100kurus=1lira. Suppose we have a lot from each of these. To make a payment total 5lira=500kurus, how many different payment options do we have? That's, suppose we have:

a pcs of 1kurus, b pcs of 5kurus, c pcs of 10kurus, d pcs of 25kurus, e pcs of 50kurus and f pcs of 100kurus. Total amount will be 500kurus.

Mathematical formulation is:
1a + 5b + 10c + 25d + 50e + 100f = 500
Solve a, b, c, d, e, f.

At first glance, it may seem to any person that this equation is not solvable as there is 1 equation 6 unknowns. However, when the same person runs his mind a little s/he will see it is not so, there are relations between a, b, c, d, e and f. So, actually, in this one equation, there is only one unknown and determining it will be equivalent to determining the probability in the question. However, this may not be studied in the probability field of mathematics as it is about "possibility" rather than "probability" as there is analytical certainty in this question. Anyway, proof/solution of this question may require some mathematical language such as Axiom, Lemma, Theorem, Proof, QED, etc which I myself am a foreigner to this language in their systematic. I leave this way of speaking to the mathematican. Anyway, this "educational mathematics" question can be left to students at elementary schools to high schools, also to university students for "easiest" solution.

Now, suppose we do NOT have any of these available coins anywhere in the world. Let the name of currency be "X" instead of kurus or cent or agora or whatever. So, we will be setting up a world coin system from the beginning. Similar to the question above, question is:

To obtain a total amount "T", how many coins from each new coins are needed?

Let A, E, I, O, U, etc (see only wovel letters and capitals) show their face values of new coins.
Let k, l, m, n, p, r, etc be number/pieces of each coins.
Let the dot (.) shows multiplication symbol not to confuse with x or X which is the name of coin.

Now, question/problem is:

k.A + l.E + m.I + n.O + p.U + .... (etc) = T(otal) .... Solve k, l, m, etc., and A, E, I, etc...

See, in this one equation, everythings unknown. Is this solvable? (ok, before going into answer/talk more, first, lets wait for the coins sent to be delivered to the mathematican. For the moment, this is enough.)

 

You are talking a load of nonsense. This has nothing to do with a coin forum. And when it comes to mathematics I DO know what I am talking about, much more than you appear to do because your argument is not even correct.

 

@sakata, okay, I realized my mistake (..."such as d=5b" in my previous post and corrected/deleted it by editing.)

Aside jokes and beside "who knows what and how much" that is not relevant here, "sakata, your word "this has nothing to do with a coin forum" means that "coin has nothing to do with mathematics", doesn't it.

(Dale, did you hear this? I saw on your web page related to the coin & mathematics. If you published those coins with portraits of mathematicans only on your web page, then, I could think different. However, I see that you also have some coins with some mathematics although a few only. Here, what I am trying to tell is that mathematics on the coins exist on all coins except those coins without face values and my initial question in this thread was about that, about history of coins with/without numerals.)

 

While some of the issues discussed in this topic are just way above my head that "token" question I can answer. These pieces are not considered to be coins as they were issued by private companies/institutions. In those years, British merchants suffered from a lack of small (low denomination) coins, and such tokens addressed the problem. You could also call this money "notgeld" or "emergency money" ...

Side note: There are a few spelling errors on that page. Usually I am not picky when it comes to these things, but it should be "Isaac (Newton)" and "Britain". Also, those tokens are called Conder tokens, named after the man who wrote the (first?) catalog about them, apart from issuing his own tokens.

Christian

 

CoinCorgi (the 11th most intelligent breed of dog) says...
a=500,b=c=d=e=f=0