Coin collectors of Germany are asking for help

It's the country with the best health care system, the leading car makers and an excellent educational system. We also have (or should I speak in past tense...?) very nice coins

 

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Good that you mentioned coins too. Otherwise I would have asked you guys to stay on-topic. By the way, Ursula Kampmann picked a third party petition site instead of the one that is operated by the German federal parliament. This way she needs more signatures, but those sigs can come from anywhere. Signing the petition, or otherwise expressing your concerns, would make sense regardless of your citizenship or residence ...

Christian

 

Just a quick update - about 13,000 signatures, almost 8,200 of them from Germany. By the way, the page also shows a "cloud" of referring domain names (Woher kommen Unterstützer). You can see that currently "news.mdm.de" is pretty big; MDM (one of the world's biggest coin dealers) referred to the petition in its newsletter. Another example is MA-Shops which has a link on its front page.

Some more maps and stats are here: https://www.openpetition.de/petition/statistik/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns Whether Ursula Kampmann will reach her own goal of 120,000 signatures within the next month I don't know. Some coin collectors may find her approach too broad, others may say that they collect modern pieces (<100 yrs) only ...

Christian

 

I can't see how this could be enforced, folk would just drive across the nearest border and sell their stuff or ship it out from there. In the Schlengen zone which covers most of the EU except the UK, borders are open, crossings are unchecked.

 

Hmm, Cyprus and Ireland are not in the Schengen Area either. And of course checks near the member state lines are possible even within "Schengenland". If you then have lots of cash (> €10,000), or precious works of art etc., with you without having declared it, that may get you into an uncomfortable situation.

Smuggling will always be possible, but always with certain risks. Dealers or collectors who know that outside the European Union they can make more money with such items may well try it. Also keep in mind that there is a world outside the EU and that bringing them there would definitely be tougher or impossible.

As far as I can tell, the proposed law is, on one hand, merely a specification of a European Union framework regulation, see here. The situation in other member states is therefore not fundamentally different, but the German plans would be extremely rigid. They would introduce reverse onus clauses and may even violate legal principles such as nulla poena sine lege. (IANAL though.)

I fully respect the intention behind the plans of Ms Grütters: Illegal excavations (e.g. Bulgaria) or trade with ancients objects from war areas (e.g. Iraq) are a problem and should be prevented - well, made as difficult as possible. What the government currently plans, however, is written with a terribly broad brush so to say.

Christian

 

I really fail to see how a countries "cultural heritage" can feel threatened if folks are collecting items of that "cultural heritage" and paying premiums for those items.

The natural course of a collector willing to pay premiums for items is to "factually" learn about those items and (hopefully) document what has been learned thereby "preserving" the "cultural heritage" surrounding the collected item.

Specific to Germany, there are some things within their "cultural heritage" which even they don't want! For example, since the swastika has been "banned" within Germany, are they really going to give me grief if I try to sell my German coins which have the swastika on them because it is eroding away at their "cultural heritage"?

 

No, and therefore the answer to your question is No. In 1945 the use of the swastika in the Deutsches Reich was understandably banned by the Allied occupation administration. In the Federal Republic of Germany, founded four years later, the legal situation is a little different. Bottom line: It is OK here in certain historical contexts (e.g. in a movie about the regime) and on original items from the nazi years. The latter includes coins but not modern nazi medals. Yes, I know that eBay applies its own rules, but that company does not make the laws here.

As for cultural heritage, I would rather see an important work of art in a public museum "somewhere" than hidden in a private collection in the country or area of origin. But these days hardly anybody would support moving, say, an ancient temple to some other country simply because some collector might be able to afford it. See my examples in the previous post: Is it more legitimate to illegally "grab" and "export" precious items from a Bulgarian grave, or from a museum during some Iraqi Freedom campaign, simply because they can be moved more easily than an entire building?

My primary problems with this bill are, first, the mandatory documentation - basically makes sense, but how am I supposed to "prove" that some work of art has been in our family for many years or decades? The second issue is the lack of any differentiation between single rare/unique objects and "mass" coins.

Christian

 

First off, if a law like this is implemented in Europe, the Americas, and parts of Asia (which is not impossible to do) this would be devastating. The way I see it the government is just trying to grab the wealth from the people. In this case "cultural items." How many people can really document these artifacts who legally have them?

 

Signed as soon as I saw it. Next.

 

Update - The "internal" vote of the ministers on the second draft (scheduled for August 26, 2015) has been postponed. Will now be in mid-September; by that time a revised draft will be presented. See here: http://www.coinsweekly.com/en/page/4?&id=3597 So if you want to sign, or know somebody who may be willing to sign, you now have until 20 October ...

By the way, while I agree with Ms Kampmann's concerns (and those of many others), I still think there is a significant difference between unique works of art, and coins which are usually mass products, made to circulate and be used. Ah well, did not keep me from signing. In this update, however, there is a part that I strongly disagree with.

She writes "What consternates me is how many signers do not want to see their names published and choose to remain anonymous. It reflects the great distrust collectors have developed of the government." That is her conclusion, and may well reflect what she thinks; maybe it is the attitude of other collectors too. Does not apply to me though - I am quite simply reluctant to make my address public in such a context. Has nothing to do with the government but with, hmm, crime prevention.

Christian

 

Maybe that is what Ursula Kampmann had in mind. There have been a few cases (I think we even discussed them here) of collections being seized because a collector bought coins from shady-or-worse sources. In such a situation (if there is an initial suspicion) the collector may be "asked" to provide evidence that the other pieces were not acquired under illegal circumstances.

Somewhat amusing side note: One time, about five years ago, that even affected a police chief superintendent from near Munich. He had simply bought ten ancient Roman coins, without any "pedigree", via eBay. Ultimately even the prosecutor/DA pleaded not guilty ...

I just find it strange that Kampmann counts all "anonymous signatures" (of course I provided my name and location; they are just not publicly displayed) as expressions of distrust when it comes to the government. As I wrote, there are other reasons why a coin collector may not be interested in seeing his address published this way.

Christian

 

If they can take it from my dead hand after I worked hard to pay for it then the government, archaeologist and museums can have it. Most coins in museums go the back rooms to never been seen by the public.

 

Any updates on this?

 

Hubert Lanz (FENAP) wrote a comment on this for this year's World Money Fair catalog. (The WMF in Berlin is the world's biggest coin show, and thus gets quite a bit of attention.) Apparently the debate is still going on, as many collectors and dealers in various fields - coins, paintings and sculptures, etc. - are affected.

The deadline that the EU directive set (mid December 2015) was not met, and the bill has already been updated a few times. This "petition" has been signed by about 32,500 in Germany, plus about 12,000 from elsewhere. That means 27% of the 120,000 quorum.

At least destroying 18th century art by customs officials does not seem to be part of the plans.

Christian

 

Oh my God!

 

I wish more people would give a damn about these things. SMH

 

Update: According to the petition blog, the Bundestag's Cultural Affairs Committee refused to formally receive the petition.

Quote: "44.500 citizens have signed the petition 'For preserving the right to privately collect'. They are representing these millions of German collectors who are not yet aware that the new law will affect collecting." Now keep in mind that the original goal was 120,000 signatures. Of those 44,500 only about 33,000 came from people in Germany. Also, I find it somewhat presumptuous to claim that whoever did not sign is simply unaware of the issue.

Another quote: "For good reasons, the platform chosen for this petition was not the petition platform of the German Bundestag, but the neutral platform 'openpetition', because it ensures, that personal data of signers will not be passed on to third parties." Yes, I understand why collectors of possibly valuable items may not want to see their contact info made public. Then again that is one of the drawbacks if one chooses to not use the parliament's petition platform but a third party site like OpenPetition or Change.org ...

Christian