CNG revealing all proxy bids

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Andrew McCabe, May 13, 2020.

  1. MSG 78

    MSG 78 Active Member

    You raise a point I might start a new thread on - estimates. But to the first point, it takes two bidders to drive prices way beyond what is expected. I was the underbidder today on a commission bid for a client that sold at 4 times estimate. I checked, since it opened there were 37 different people who bid on the lot. That's just crazy.

    But as for estimates, CNG always estimates at a level we think is high wholesale. As I said, I will open a new link on this when I get a chance. I would love input from you guys on what you would prefer we do. But when I open that link, I will tell you how other dealers, in my opinion, estimate their coins. There are many trains of thought on this subject. It's one we debate at CNG often.

    Thanks for your bids today. I also only managed to get one coin for a commission bidder. It was a crazy sale.
     
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  3. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Wanna talk about getting smoked at today's CNG eauction. This beauty started at $100 (just silly), had a estimate of $300 (ridiculous) and sold for $1,300 (sounds about right. Though triples the range I was willing to work in). My laughable bid= :dead:
    283_1.jpg
    Q. Creperius M.f. Rocus. 69 BC. AR Serrate Denarius (18mm, 3.80 g, 5h). Rome mint. Draped bust of Amphitrite right, seen from behind; crab behind, C before / Neptune, holding reins and brandishing trident, driving sea-chariot drawn by two hippocamps right; C above. Crawford 399/1b; Sydenham 796a; Crepereia 2; RBW –. Light iridescent toning, a few light marks. VF.

    From the Benito Collection.
     
  4. Restitutor

    Restitutor Well-Known Member

    Reading my post again I don’t think my thoughts properly aligned with what I typed! I meant to say “quite a few hands” and only typed “few hands” :banghead: Sorry for the confusion. Because yes I concur there were so many bids for each coin it was very exciting! I was on edge more than usual as the ticker went down to the final few seconds on the ones I got!

    Looking forward to the estimate thread, it’s a topic that very much interests me and I would imagine others as well!
     
    kazuma78 likes this.
  5. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    Thanks, that's what I thought and that was my "end user" experience for the part of the auction I followed. I was surprised to see this thread, as I have always found CNG to be a stand-up company that offers a good service.

    Book or no book, crazy bidding or not, I was able to pick up a couple of lots in the print auction and a few more in the electronic.

    Since we have your ear, I will just throw out an additional endorsement of your staff, whom I think does a good job and provides a quality product. DG has always been very helpful as I build my British coin collection.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  6. MSG 78

    MSG 78 Active Member

    Thank you! DG and his wife had a baby this past week. They are all doing well. He is indeed a great guy.
     
  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I'm rather shocked that someone paid $800 for that coin. Yes, it's in great condition, but CNG itself called it only "near" EF. Is it truly that much better than the multiple other examples, from a variety of mints, that CNG has sold at auction in the last few months for a small fraction of that price? (See https://www.coinarchives.com/a/resu...+abdication+follis&s=0&upcoming=0&results=100.) Are examples from Serdica rarer than those from elsewhere? I don't see them listed as such. I don't have access to the price information on acsearch, or to the "pro" version of Coin Archives that gives one access to more than a limited number of sales prices, but has an example of the Diocletian abdication follis ever previously sold for as much as $800?

    In any event, this kind of thing is why I almost never bid in auctions anymore (other than FSR's). I'm invariably disappointed, and in a live auction I'm not sure I trust myself always to exercise the proper impulse control! Even though fixed-price sites don't necessarily have the best examples or the widest variety compared to auctions (taken collectively), there are plenty of wonderful coins to buy, and I don't need the "best." Also, even though traditionally the theory has been that it costs less to buy a coin at auction, even with buyer's fees, than to buy a similar coin at a place like VCoins, I'm willing to pay a little more for the certainty and the absence of stress.

    Plus, given recent trends in auction prices for ancient coins, I'm not even sure that theory holds true these days. Although I'm somewhat concerned that the same trend will carry over into the fixed-price market, and that fixed-price sellers will start raising their prices accordingly -- and/or that wealthy buyers will start snapping up all the relative bargains (compared to what may be the new reality) still available at VCoins and MA-Shops. Partly because of that concern, and because for quite some time I've actually had the Diocletian abdication follis on my very long list of coins I'd like to buy (a list I'll never get to the end of, I'm sure, because it grows continually!), when I saw one available today for less than 20% of the one that went for $800, I went ahead and bought it. (As it happens, the seller was Coin Talk's own @Victor_Clark.)

    True, it's not as impressive as the one that sold for $800. But I happen to think it's a very nice coin, and it's plenty good enough for my collection!

    Diocletian, billon abdication Follis, 305-307 AD, Trier Mint. Obv. Laureate bust right in imperial mantle (trabea), holding olive branch and mappa, D N DIOCLETIANO BAEATISSIMO SEN AVG / Rev. Providentia standing right, holding scroll[?] and drapery with left hand and extending right hand to Quies standing left, holding branch downward with right hand and leaning on scepter with left hand; S - F across fields; PROVIDENTIA DEORVM QVIES AVGG; PTR in exergue. 27x28 mm., 9.6 gm. RIC VI Trier 673a (p. 208), Sear RCV IV 12927.

    Diocletian abdication follis, Trier mint, jpg image.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  8. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    PS: What is that object that Providentia is holding in her left hand, anyway? I haven't been able to find an identification anywhere.
     
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  9. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Snippet from Forum Ancient Coins...

    Providence (PROVIDENTIA DEORVM) however, is most often depicted under the form of a female, clothed in a matron's gown, holding in her left hand a cornucopiae, or the hasta pura, and in her right a short wand, with which she either touches or points to a globe. Sometimes she holds this globe in her right hand, at others it lies at her feet. This type is intended to mark the power and wisdom of the emperor, who ruled the Roman world

    https://forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=providentia
     
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  10. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thank you. The object certainly isn't a hasta pura [bloodless spear], and if it's a cornucopiae, it seems to be very small for one, plus it isn't curved (like a horn!) as they usually are. If I zoom in on the object as much as possible without the photo blurring, it looks to me like it has a slight flare at the bottom, as if it were a goblet. Which doesn't make too much sense. Jones's Dictionary of Ancient Coins states in its entry for Providentia (see p. 256) that her attributes include "a sceptre, a rod with which she points at a globe, and occasionally a cornucopiae, a spear, a rudder, or a patera." Could the object possibly be a very short scepter? (Compare to the long scepter on which Quies is leaning.)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  11. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    Could it be a scroll? Or a chalice?

    The early coinage of Hadrian has many types with deities handing over a scroll to the new emperor, Trajan included.
    As this is a transition issue, I was wondering if it could be something similar.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  12. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Thanks. My original thought was that it might be a scroll. And then I decided that it seems to be shaped like a goblet, which of course could easily be a chalice. In order to figure it out, I'd probably have to look at other examples minted in Trier to see what the object looks like in those coins. I just haven't had the time yet.
     
  13. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    Please let us know if you find out. It would be very interesting if it was a chalice.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I just looked on acsearch and found these three examples from Trier with similar reverses -- in fact, I think that the first one, sold by Numismatik Naumann in 2015, is a die match. In all of them, the object held by Providentia in her left hand looks most like a scroll to me:

    https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=2337893

    https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=758098

    https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=495836

    What do you think?
     
  15. svessien

    svessien Senior Member

    I think you’re right on both.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  16. Carausius

    Carausius Brother, can you spare a sestertius?

    Having read the the balance of this thread, and in particular the @MSG 78 responses (which I appreciated), it seems I had the above facts wrong by one increment. I apologize if that inaccuracy stirred-up any ill will unnecessarily. Based on what I heard, I thought I had it correct. In the future, I would encourage CNG to handle ties with the maximum book bid in a less ambiguous (and more subtle) fashion. Perhaps "we already have a book bid at that level, can you do one more?" to make it clear there is a tie bid while not making it so clear that the book has nothing more. Protect both sides.
     
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  17. KeviniswhoIam

    KeviniswhoIam Well-Known Member

    I did.....just one, but bid on a few
     
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