CNG-112 - Mr Shill revealed

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by pprp, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    I've won coins in 7 of 9 of their web auctions, so I have a few more data points to add.

    As background to how I place my bids with Leu - I would say that about 90% of the time, I bid between 6-24 hours of the auction going live as I'm almost never able to participate 'live'.

    Looking through my bidding history on their website, I see that out of a total of 50 lots won, just 28 were at my max bid, and of those, 9 were instances where the lot was won at opening price, or I won the lot as the last bidder.

    I also note that my two most expensive wins at a Leu auction came below my max bid : a CHF 950 win on CHF 1000 max, and a CHF 1100 win on a CHF 1250 max.

    I can't say that the above proves or disproves anything, but I figured that more actual data can only help to add some clarity to the topic. Just speaking for myself, I reckon the exercise strengthens for me the impression that nothing out of the ordinary is going on.
     
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  3. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    I don't think you would need airtight proof to get the Department of Commerce to start looking into a company's behavior. If you have a suspicion that something shady is going on, then there must be a reason. Several of your maximum bids maxed out, for example. Take screen images of your max bids. Collect documentation such as invoices or email correspondence with the company. Contact the Department of Commerce and get the company on their radar screen. Tell them you suspect this behavior is going on and explain why. Send screen images, invoices, emails, whatever you have to support your claim.

    Don't accept euphemisms or excuses for shill bidding from an auction house, such as buyers bidding their own items up as a method of establishing a "reserve." It isn't. It's fraud and market manipulation, and it's unethical and illegal. A reserve is an amount established before an auction begins below which an item will not be sold. It is not established during an auction by shill bids.

    The company I worked for used Liveauctioneers, and Liveauctioneers was aware that shill bidding was possible through their system. They've since modified their software to make it difficult for auction houses who use their software to engage in dishonest behavior. Again, it's been a decade since this happened, but as I recall Liveauctioneers has since made bidders' max bids confidential, so that the auction house doesn't know the amount. We used to know exactly what each bidder's max bid was, and the owner knew never to shill beyond it. And yes, there were calls from buyers who suspected that something fishy was going on.

    Companies that use their own proprietary bidding system, such as CNG, well... I don't know that the max bids are confidential. My advice is, bid with caution and never place a max bid higher than you are truly willing to pay.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  4. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    Which Department of Commerce? Switzerland? Or in the bidder's country which might be Norway or Belgium or Canada (wherever NathanP is based). Or some third country that has international jurisdiction in the way that all Facebook issues in Europe are governed by Ireland. I suspect the great majority of ancient coin purchases are international. For me, probably 90%. Whatever one's issue, whether authenticity or bidding behaviour, my sense since I started discussing this re eBay 20 years ago, is that traditional trading standards organisations cannot cope with international commerce issues. Thats why we tend more and more to rely on arbitration run by platforms such as eBay itself. But when a company uses it's own platform, one is stuck unless one pays by credit card or similar. But I am not sure Visa or Amex will be interested in assertions about being over charged due to shill bidding. At best they may cancel the transaction at which point you still have to deal with a Swiss seller saying "pay me". It gets very messy.
     
  5. nicholasz219

    nicholasz219 Well-Known Member

    @Ken Dorney I appreciate your reply.

    I would also like to second @Andrew McCabe above. My suggestion would be to not bid or purchase anywhere you don't feel comfortable or where the auction house does not operate up to your standards. I don't feel like I have been the victim of shill bidding but maybe I just collect junk. On the other hand, I have a few auction houses I refuse to buy from because they set unrealistic estimates then demand a minimum bid of 90% of said estimate. I'll just wait for another coin elsewhere.
     
    Alegandron and Nicholas Molinari like this.
  6. Meander

    Meander Well-Known Member

    You may be wrong about that coin. The coin was sold by one of the members of this forum @ancientnut in Triton XXI alongside his other coins. I dont remember seeing the coin in the ArtAncient shop before that auction and I am also watching that shop regularly. It is possible though that @ancientnut bought it from ArtAncient and then they decided to buy in the Triton XXI again...
     
  7. Lolli

    Lolli Active Member

    ancientnut has posted a picture of the coin Feb 21, 2016
    but he did not say that it his coin. And even if he had it how long did he have it ? Or ancientnut has consigned it to ArtAncient shop that they will sell it for him but they did not and then he has consigned it to Triton and ArtAncient bought it there. All depends on how long ancientnut had the coin and when and to whom he has sold it.

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/thurium-lucania.275069/

    Again it is possible that my memory is fooling me but I was very sure about it because it is one of my favorite coins and on my want list for a long time but price was deterring me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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