CNG-112 - Mr Shill revealed

With auctions that have a time limit such as CNG Auction 112 I will usually bid within a few seconds before the closing and what I am willing to pay. Then add an extra few dollars in case of a tie. As an example in 112 I bid $2856 against a coin which was then currently at $2100. If I am unable to monitor the auction for some reason I will throw a bid at a coin and will employ a similar bidding strategy. So basically if I decided to bid on a coin whether the bid was a few seconds or even a few hours before closing my bid would be basically the same.
On a separate part of this thread. I have placed a large number of coins up for auction and I would never bid on them. I would let friends whom I would think might be interested in the coins know that they are now available but otherwise I simply monitor the coins and hope for a good result.
I much prefer to attend an auction in person. I get to see the coins and bid on those I really like. Metapontion Ar stater 400-340 B.C. Noe 520 Purchased CNG Triton XXII Lot 37 Ex Prospero Collection 7.99 grms 20 mm

 

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Dear Andrew,

thank you for sharing this info, i did not know this.
So if i understand it correctly, you will never have a winning bid with 1 bid only on your winning coin, when pre bidding?
(i checked all lots i have bid on always had more than 1 bids)

 

I worked for a company that ran online auctions out of NYC that engaged in shill bidding. The owner would place bids on behalf of himself (sometimes he owned the item up for auction) or a consignor, usually someone he had a business agreement with. The shills maxed out the bidders' max bid. I didn't stay long because I didn't want to be involved with a company and with people who engaged in illegal activity. It was so egregious that I quit my position without another job lined up — you know, the thing you are advised never to do.

I don't know about now, but at the time (about a decade ago) NY auction laws didn't apply to online auctions conducted by people who were not licensed auctioneers or whose business wasn't an auction house (neither applied in this case). It wasn't an "auction house" but it ran online auctions.

Nonetheless, this activity violates U.S. Department of Commerce trade regulations and is a federal crime. It doesn't matter what the local or state regulations are. Shill bidding over the internet, regardless of the euphemism used to describe it or whatever excuse is being used, is illegal and considered theft or fraud, and stealing an amount over five hundred dollars over the internet through fraudulent international transactions is a felony under federal law.

I don't remember all the details of the laws so I may be inaccurate in relating the specifics I mention above, but I researched it extensively at the time. The point is that if you suspect a U.S. business of shill bidding over the internet, then contact the International Trade Administration https://www.trade.gov If it's company based in Europe, then each country will have it's own laws and you should look into them and contact the appropriate agency.

 

I have no proof, and would have no idea how to go about proving something like this. Frankly, I was wondering if I was just imagining things or if this was just a crazy coincidence. But it's happened too many times in a row now that I just wondered whether other people had had the same experience.

 

There is one way to get around this I suppose (if one fears impropriety). Instead of entering a high bid just enter your minimum. Now, that won’t help you much on CNG who has lots close at a fixed time. But with such sites like biddr the lots continue until going, going, gone. But then, that also won’t help if you can’t watch in real time.

 

The lots of the auction house in question close at a fixed time just like CNG. The issue is that, with about 10 seconds to go, I put my max bid in. I take the lead. Then, with 3 seconds or less to go, the bidding goes directly to my max bid, uncannily, just about every single time (often far above where I had first taken the lead). Now, I was willing to pay that much. But I just find it to be a little bit too coincidental that the bidders I'm supposedly bidding against manage to take the bidding, with a few seconds to go, right to my max bid that often. Not $20 less or $20 more. Literally, right to my max bid. If it was just happening to me I might still think it's a coincidence. But since this issue is apparently well known, well now I'm thinking it's not a coincidence and will adjust my bidding accordingly (or just not buy from this auction house anymore).

 

WHAT AUCTION HOUSE IS THIS?!

 

That sounds like the software is working as it should, entering a higher bid automatically. If you are losing often it may simply be that you aren’t bidding high enough. It’s hard to tell what may be happening with second hand information.

For me, I rarely get emotional with bidding. I can’t afford to in all honesty. I bid only what I am willing to pay at a maximum. If I’m outbid (whether legitimately or not) I don’t care. I just move on to the next coin, the next auction, etc.

I’ve been doing this for over 30 years and I’ve been pretty happy with everything so far. If I’ve been the victim of impropriety I have no idea, but I can honestly say I’ve never regretted buying any coin. Ever.

 

He can speak up, but I think the point is that he was high but not at max until the final moments when he is shot precisely to his max in each case.

 

I can't say this is a systemic issue with Leu. I've won a 55 CHF coin with an 80 CHF bid, and a 235 CHF coin with a 320 CHF bid. I don't think there was anything odd going on there.

 

I bid for the first time with Leu this past week. Won three coins, two of them below my max bid. I can’t speak to delayed shipping because they haven’t shipped yet.

 

Well, yes. This is how auctions work. Small bids until the end when everyone gets out bid by the few who are willing to pay more. Honestly I am not really sure what we are talking about anymore.

 

On eBay, a dealer was selling and, I was buying using a 'sniping' tool.
Upon analyzing those lots that I did not win, (many), I found that my (absolute) maximum bid was three times that of the next bidder, but I still lost the coin for the sake of $1.00 TO THE SAME BUYER each time. Can anyone tell me how THAT happens?
After two dozen losses, over a three week period, I stopped bidding on that seller's coins because all I was doing was 'earning' him, (the seller), more money, and buying myself some unwanted frustration.

 

Well since you were using a sniping tool, I would guess he was using a sniping tool too, and his maximum bid was simply more than yours.

I can understand it's frustrating to lose, but I really don't see anything suspicious here.

 

For the record, here is my Leu bidding history. Calling shenanigans based on my data would require a great deal of imagination. I've bid in four of their web auctions and won five coins; only two were at my max although the others were within an increment or so. My only successful bids were in their first web auction. I won all five of my targets, bidding not in the final few seconds as is my preference and norm but still within the final minute. My Leu wins were all from their first web auction. Bids in their 4th, 5th, and 7th Web Auction were all unsuccessful.

Starting price: 75 CHF
Hammer price: 110 CHF
Your maximum bid: 111 CHF
Number of bids: 4 Bids

Starting price: 50 CHF
Hammer price: 151 CHF
Your maximum bid: 162 CHF
Number of bids: 13 Bids

Starting price: 50 CHF
Hammer price: 121 CHF
Your maximum bid: 121 CHF
Number of bids: 10 Bids

Starting price: 75 CHF
Hammer price: 85 CHF
Your maximum bid: 86 CHF
Number of bids: 2 Bids

Starting price: 50 CHF
Hammer price: 111 CHF
Your maximum bid: 111 CHF
Number of bids: 5 Bids


My unsuccessful Leu bids:

Starting price: 75 CHF
Hammer price: 500 CHF
Your maximum bid: 480 CHF
Number of bids: 6 Bids

Starting price: 100 CHF
Hammer price: 800 CHF
Your maximum bid: 655 CHF
Number of bids: 13 Bids

Starting price: 50 CHF
Hammer price: 150 CHF
Your maximum bid: 100 CHF
Number of bids: 6 Bids

Starting price: 25 CHF
Hammer price: 190 CHF
Your maximum bid: 85 CHF
Number of bids: 12 Bids

Starting price: 25 CHF
Hammer price: 120 CHF
Your maximum bid: 111 CHF
Number of bids: 9 Bids

Starting price: 75 CHF
Hammer price: 440 CHF
Your maximum bid: 261 CHF
Number of bids: 8 Bids

Starting price: 25 CHF
Hammer price: 240 CHF
Your maximum bid: 171 CHF
Number of bids: 10 Bids

Logged in to my Leu account I can also see every bid placed on these coins, by sequential generic bidder number, along with the bid date and time. I don't see anything unusual or suspicious about it. If anyone wants to see details of the bids for any of the coins above, I can post that data.

 

Fair enough. The issue I refer to related to significantly larger amounts tho where it perhaps seemed more worth playing games. It may not apply at all levels.

So I've raised the point that some experienced collectors consider Leu untrustworthy (not just on this, but wider aspects such as the "S.Pozzi" collection sold recently where it was deceptive not to make clear that this had nothing at all to do with the 1920s S.Pozzi). I trust them less far than I could throw them. As with a TripAdvisor review, balance what I write against everything else you know, hear and feel.

 

Good advice.

I've edited my post to read "Calling shenanigans based on my data would require a great deal of imagination."

 

In the UK, if you bid in an auction where you are the seller then that is illegal. People have been prosecuted under the "Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008" and it was noted that they could also have been prosecuted under the "Fraud Act 2006".

Similarly if people agree to bid on each other’s items the parties could be prosecuted for the offence of conspiracy to defraud, which makes it a criminal offence for parties to agree to defraud another party.

These practices are both described as "shill bidding".

The only exception is under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, which allows the seller or their representative (the auctioneer for example) to bid the item up to a pre-set reserve. If no reserve is set then this practice is not permissible.

 

The lots you lost are irrelevant to the discussion. But even on the ones you won, your max bid was hit 4/5 times.

 

Hmm. Perhaps I missed some important point in this thread? I thought the original post had morphed into a discussion of whether or not Leu uses insight into their customers' maximum bids to drive the hammer to someone's max. I am definitely interested in learning more about this but wonder if such a conversation should be taken to the private message section, in case the fears are unfounded. It is possible to have a large number of people included in one private conversation group. Just a thought . Meanwhile, please let me know in what way my post was irrelevant.

Technically... 2/5 times, although if someone on the inside were to manipulate bids, it wouldn't have made sense to increase the others (or in some circumstances, it wouldn't be possible).

Perhaps the lots I didn't win are more relevant? This one, for instance:

Starting price: 75 CHF
Hammer price: 500 CHF
Your maximum bid: 480 CHF
Number of bids: 6 Bids

It hammered for one increment above my max. Here's the expanded view of the bids:

Closing time: 24-Jun-18, 17:12:00 CEST
Bidder Bid amount Bid time
Bidder 1 500 CHF 31-May-18 13:10:20
(me) 480 CHF 24-Jun-18 17:11:50
Bidder 4 300 CHF 19-Jun-18 23:06:03
Bidder 3 110 CHF 31-May-18 13:43:21
Bidder 2 80 CHF 31-May-18 13:09:46
Bidder 1 75 CHF 30-May-18 20:27:25

Maybe it's easier to digest with the bids arranged chronologically:

Closing time: 24-Jun-18, 17:12:00 CEST
Bidder Bid amount Bid time
(me) 480 CHF 24-Jun-18 17:11:50 (ten seconds before closing)
Bidder 4 300 CHF 19-Jun-18 23:06:03
Bidder 3 110 CHF 31-May-18 13:43:21
Bidder 1 500 CHF 31-May-18 13:10:20 (3+ weeks before closing)
Bidder 2 80 CHF 31-May-18 13:09:46
Bidder 1 75 CHF 30-May-18 20:27:25

I wonder if Bidder 1 thought I was a shill?

I really am interested in hearing others' experience with Leu, complete with data but recommend a private group discussion though so as not to unfairly tar and feather Leu lest they are innocent of the accusations aired in this thread. If that data clearly shows a problem, then we could post it publicly.