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<p>[QUOTE="Broucheion, post: 5232022, member: 104887"]Hi [USER=99456]@Sulla80[/USER],</p><p><br /></p><p>Thank you for a very interesting overview of this period of Egyptian history. Very nice coin and photograph too!</p><p><br /></p><p>You are correct in that the coin is a year 30 Teradrachm of Ptolemy XII. I think your questions with answers are laid out in Otto Morkholm's article "PTOLEMAIC COINS AND CHRONOLOGY: THE DATED SILVER COINAGE OF ALEXANDRIA" ANS Museum Notes, Vol. 20 (1975), pp. 7-24 (23 pages). You can <a href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9" rel="nofollow">read or download the article here.</a> See especially the section on what he calls the 5th Period (55/54 - 31/30 BCE), where the types of Ptolemy XII, Cleopatra and the star coins are discussed.<a href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9" rel="nofollow"> </a></p><p><br /></p><p>The key to confirming your coin could not be a coin of year 1 with a star has to do with the hairstyle of the Ptolemy on the obverse. The so-called "tier-hairstyle" (fig 1) starts with coins of Ptolemy XII in year 26 and goes up to and including year 11 of Cleopatra VII. In Year 12 there is a markedly different "cap style" (or "Beatle haircut", fig 2) used from there on out to the final year 22 tetradrachms.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1217165[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Like you, Morkholm aslo notes that the Λ of year 30 and A of year one look similar. He states:</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><i>"It now happens that at this time the distinction between Λ and A in the coin inscriptions was practically non-existent. Both in the royal title, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, and in the initials ΠA we find many cases where Λ is used instead of A. The rather regrettable result of this carelessness is that when we meet with coins dated LΛ we cannot be sure whether it stands for year 30 or year 1. In this case, of course, it is the same Egyptian year and that is certainly provided with a coinage, but here the numismatic material offers no information concerning the change of ruler."</i></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>My experience over 40 years of collecting Ptolemaic coins has never shown me coins where it was not clear if it was year 30 versus year 1. There seem to always be distinct crossbars or dots for the crossbars. So, I take that quote with a large grain of salt.</p><p><br /></p><p>Additionally, I should note that Cathy Lorber, last time I discussed this series with her (at least 10 years ago), was not convinced the star coins of years 1 & 7 were actually minted for Caesarion. Her opinion was that these were from a 2nd officina of the mint. I am personally convince by Morkholm's arguments, but am open to evidence - especially hoard evidence if any - that would bolster Lorber's ideas. However, I still use her dating in my collection database. She's still the expert here! Here's what Morkholm wrote on that:</p><p><br /></p><blockquote><p><i>"Coins of the second (central-hairstyle) style, dated to year 1 and</i></p><p><i>year 7 are known (Plate VI, 5 and 7). It seems quite unreasonable that the clear pattern developed above should be broken in only two years. With several die cutters working simultaneously at a mint, different styles might occur in the same period. But we should expect such a stylistic diversity to make itself felt throughout the period and not to be concentrated in two years."</i></p></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Here are my coins for comparison. Thanks again for an entertaining post.</p><p><br /></p><p>Year 30, Ptolemy XII, Svoronos 1840, pl lxi, 25:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1217170[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Year 1, Cleopatra VII, Svoronos 1815, pl A, 19 - No star above LA</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1217171[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Year 1, Cleopatra VII (I prefer year 1 Caesarion = yr 16 Cleopatra VII), Svoronos 1816, pl lxi, 1 with a start above LA.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1217173[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>You also asked:</p><p>- does the headdress of Isis on the coin always mean Cleopatra?</p><p><i>Yes for coins dated years 1-22; It's Ptolemy XII for coins dated years 26-30.</i></p><p><i><br /></i></p><p>- were these coins (with <b>ΠA</b> mintmark) from two mints despite being marked as Cyprus?</p><p><i>No one really knows why the ΠA mintmark was adapted/adopted for both Cyprus and Alexandria starting with Ptolemy VI. </i></p><p><br /></p><p>- what is the story on "feminine portraits", and more generally did the portrait of Ptolemy always shift to reflect the current ruler?</p><p><i>That is probably in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I see Mark Antony in Cleo's Ptolemy portraits; sometimes her.</i></p><p><br /></p><p>- Broucheion[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Broucheion, post: 5232022, member: 104887"]Hi [USER=99456]@Sulla80[/USER], Thank you for a very interesting overview of this period of Egyptian history. Very nice coin and photograph too! You are correct in that the coin is a year 30 Teradrachm of Ptolemy XII. I think your questions with answers are laid out in Otto Morkholm's article "PTOLEMAIC COINS AND CHRONOLOGY: THE DATED SILVER COINAGE OF ALEXANDRIA" ANS Museum Notes, Vol. 20 (1975), pp. 7-24 (23 pages). You can [URL='https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9']read or download the article here.[/URL] See especially the section on what he calls the 5th Period (55/54 - 31/30 BCE), where the types of Ptolemy XII, Cleopatra and the star coins are discussed.[URL='https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000108391032&view=1up&seq=9'] [/URL] The key to confirming your coin could not be a coin of year 1 with a star has to do with the hairstyle of the Ptolemy on the obverse. The so-called "tier-hairstyle" (fig 1) starts with coins of Ptolemy XII in year 26 and goes up to and including year 11 of Cleopatra VII. In Year 12 there is a markedly different "cap style" (or "Beatle haircut", fig 2) used from there on out to the final year 22 tetradrachms. [ATTACH=full]1217165[/ATTACH] Like you, Morkholm aslo notes that the Λ of year 30 and A of year one look similar. He states: [INDENT][I]"It now happens that at this time the distinction between Λ and A in the coin inscriptions was practically non-existent. Both in the royal title, ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, and in the initials ΠA we find many cases where Λ is used instead of A. The rather regrettable result of this carelessness is that when we meet with coins dated LΛ we cannot be sure whether it stands for year 30 or year 1. In this case, of course, it is the same Egyptian year and that is certainly provided with a coinage, but here the numismatic material offers no information concerning the change of ruler."[/I][/INDENT] My experience over 40 years of collecting Ptolemaic coins has never shown me coins where it was not clear if it was year 30 versus year 1. There seem to always be distinct crossbars or dots for the crossbars. So, I take that quote with a large grain of salt. Additionally, I should note that Cathy Lorber, last time I discussed this series with her (at least 10 years ago), was not convinced the star coins of years 1 & 7 were actually minted for Caesarion. Her opinion was that these were from a 2nd officina of the mint. I am personally convince by Morkholm's arguments, but am open to evidence - especially hoard evidence if any - that would bolster Lorber's ideas. However, I still use her dating in my collection database. She's still the expert here! Here's what Morkholm wrote on that: [INDENT][I]"Coins of the second (central-hairstyle) style, dated to year 1 and year 7 are known (Plate VI, 5 and 7). It seems quite unreasonable that the clear pattern developed above should be broken in only two years. With several die cutters working simultaneously at a mint, different styles might occur in the same period. But we should expect such a stylistic diversity to make itself felt throughout the period and not to be concentrated in two years."[/I][/INDENT] Here are my coins for comparison. Thanks again for an entertaining post. Year 30, Ptolemy XII, Svoronos 1840, pl lxi, 25: [ATTACH=full]1217170[/ATTACH] Year 1, Cleopatra VII, Svoronos 1815, pl A, 19 - No star above LA [ATTACH=full]1217171[/ATTACH] Year 1, Cleopatra VII (I prefer year 1 Caesarion = yr 16 Cleopatra VII), Svoronos 1816, pl lxi, 1 with a start above LA. [ATTACH=full]1217173[/ATTACH] You also asked: - does the headdress of Isis on the coin always mean Cleopatra? [I]Yes for coins dated years 1-22; It's Ptolemy XII for coins dated years 26-30. [/I] - were these coins (with [B]ΠA[/B] mintmark) from two mints despite being marked as Cyprus? [I]No one really knows why the ΠA mintmark was adapted/adopted for both Cyprus and Alexandria starting with Ptolemy VI. [/I] - what is the story on "feminine portraits", and more generally did the portrait of Ptolemy always shift to reflect the current ruler? [I]That is probably in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I see Mark Antony in Cleo's Ptolemy portraits; sometimes her.[/I] - Broucheion[/QUOTE]
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