Clearly Some people have too much money and not enough brains

Also, as someone posted here: buy the coin and not the population report!

If you can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70... buy the 69.

Well nothing else to say that hasn't already been said by this point lol...

 

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Which one is it, if I send it back once it will come back MS68, but if I send it back 10,000 times a dozen times it will come back MS70.

I respect your decision to end the conversation but I am not a raving lunatic. I had valid points the same as you that you chose to ignore rather than address. I know that PCGS and NGC are not perfect, I just think they are much more consistent than you do.

 

yeah...I am no fan of TPGs at all...I think they are a waste of money and there is simply no need for them. I am one of those guys that just need F, VF, FDC or UNC, etc... (MS whatever is, in and of itself, a scam to inflate prices).

That being said, I must also say I would love to see ANY statement from people who work for TPGs that admit they assign MS70 grades on an arbitrary basis like stated here. Or how it is common knowdelge that this is done. I DO believe SOMEONE is making things up

I believe they grade them as best they can by objecive standards that are set, maybe they cannot reproduce it all the time, maybe they can...maybe one grader is more strict than another...subjectivity cannot be kept out of anything people do. I do not believe they just pull a grade out of the air without at least trying to justify it...though I would still never use them and no, I dont think they possess any skill or knowledge that a good honest long term collector doesnt have...then again I just have never cared about the difference between MS grades and I disagree with them all together...they stand for More $ if you ask me...

 

That is an excellent post and I think you just summarized the entire debate (both sides) in two paragraphs. However, I still think that a professional grader (NGC & PCGS) would be more skilled at grading than most collectors even long term collectors. They just have more experience. IMO, there is no substitute for experience in any area of life.

 

There is some validity to that IMO, certainly a guy who grades coins for a living is probably going see quite a few more coins and have more experience grading them to a certain set standard than your average collector. Then again...how many coins graded makes an expert...certainly, in my time I have had quite a few pass by my eyes and every one I grade relatively to a standard (albiet not as nitpicky as the difference between MS69 and MS70 because I do no subscribe to those standards) but I can recognize a coin that is FDC or VF like I would think most could.

My main problem with TPGs is the effect it has on the market and prices and thus the Hobby itself...in the end...MS70 is NOT worth thousands more than MS69 in my opinion and never will be and its beyond me why someone would think this. The reliance of many on someone else to tell them a coin is good or not and the power that we have all seen this gives TPGs. Some people simply will not buy a coin unless its been slabbed. I fear a lot of people come to the hobby and find some subjective rules and guidelines and then follow them like they are sacred law with no deviation. In the end it doesnt matter to me how others approach the hobby, unless it effects prices I might have to pay and to be honest...in most cases, for every slabbed coin there are probably 500 other just as nice that arent and thats fine by me...

 

I think Richie was right when he said that reason for the price difference was due to the registries. Even with such a small population, I don't think the 1977-S IKE PF70 would go anywhere near the $5K level without the points competition. I like the registry system and have 3 different top ten sets, but I refuse to sell my soul for registry points. I would never pay $5K for a PF70 modern proof and think that those who do are a little crazy, but if they have the money to burn, who am I to criticize.

I hate that there are so called rules to coin collecting. I abhor all rules and think everyone should buy what they want. I pay through the nose for my rainbow toned coins. Why, because I like them. If I lose money in the end, so be it, I didn't buy them to make a profit. I bought them because I enjoy owning rainbow toned coins. Many others think I am an idiot for paying 5X-20X bid for a toned coin. I think they are bound by the so called rules and are slaves to the price guides. To each their own, that is one of the things that makes coin collecting so fun. There really is no right or wrong way, just your way.

 

It doesn't pay to make this point again. I said it about 5 times and Leigh continues to site it back on the board in a blatantly fictitious manner that we accuse the TPG as being purposely arbitrary in the designations of 70's. Given enough time to talk to himself he will just say everything I already wrote, and pat himself on the back for the brilliant way he has deduced these points originally.

It's all personal with him at this point. He's not listening and until you say you agree with him, even if he is actually agreeing with you, its cause for fluster and noise.

Eh - thats not fun. I use my free time here because I enjoy it. I don't enjoy my words being twisted.

Ruben

 

I completely disagree with this statement and feel that it is out of line. Lehigh, like the rest of us, has his own views about this hobby. I think we are all just kind of set in our ways and a little stubborn.

That said, what I would really like to see is a specific definition from a TPG about what a "70" grade is. I don't mean "flawless coin" because I don't believe there is such a thing. Each coin must have certain strike characteristics and such that the graders specifically look at to make that determination along with no contact marks with a 5x loupe. I feel that "flawless" is to general.

 

Where did that come from?

 

Well I've /dev/nulled him so it doesn't matter to me but you can keep trying to have discussions with him. BTW - remind him that using caps and large letters is the same as shouting in the written medium.

And he has taken my words and purposefully misconstrued them in this thread. That crosses the line from "we are all a little stubborn" and enters into purposeful trolling...and not listening (or reading in this case)

Ruben

 

By this definition, this seems to indicate that a coin can be 70 even if average (or less) strike. After all, that's "as minted", and they don't mention strike elsewhere.

Other definitions account for strike. Most collectors certainly do !

 

Ok Doug - now for the hot seat question of the day. You have contacts through out this field, far and wide. If we crack open 100 MS or PF 70s and resubmit them, what percentage would return still 70?

Ruben

 

Yebbut you see that's how they hold down their costs of production, by going with these inexpensive little stickers, instead of something more involved. Then, of course, they pass the savings onto the consumer...

 

That works for me, thanks Doug!

 

Let me understand this. You are adult enough to stop the conversation with me because I disagree with you and you don't want to continue the gridlocked debate, but you are childish enough to degrade me to others in the same thread that you know I am watching.

My posts on this forum are informative and well thought out. If you think I am trolling then you need to spend more time on the PCGS boards to find out what trolling really is. I have not twisted any of you words. You have done that all by yourself by posting statements that you know are untrue. BTW, I am still waiting for that copy of that e-mail to be posted.

I think you should try this. If you have something to say to me or about me, then be a man an address the comment to me. Furthermore, how can you possibly make a remark about chat room etiquette in the same post that you violate chat room etiquette. Unbelievable!

 

Your killing me. This is about the best response Ive read in a month.

Ruben

 

If they are cracked open or because they are sent back with complaints? In any event, if you believe that a substantial would return at 70 then you have to believe in the value of the 70 designation.

But I don't believe it, and neither does Jim Halpern evidently.

Ruben