Clearly Some people have too much money and not enough brains

I'm amused that the grading companies get away with this kind of scam. The top TPG's are no better than outfits like SGS... worse in a way, because nobody's calling them on it!

The plastic case with a grade on it isn't supposed to make the coin more valuable, is it? If an almost perfect coin is worth about $20, why's it worth 30 times that an extra point higher? Logic would dictate to me if you want to collect one of these, you'd be a fool to pay a rediculous price for an allegedly perfect one instead of the almost perfect one, especially given how arbitrary that 1 point difference is.

Even if you're investing instead of collecting... it can't be ignored that there's a risk down the road of people deciding that MS 70's of these shouldn't really be worth 30 times an MS 69... or that the company overgraded them ,and they really are only a 69. Then you paid $6000 for a $20 coin!

Another possibility is those realized auction prices are a result of people who can afford the vanity to be the one with a registry set of a bunch of 70's... and want it so bad they'll pay rediculous money to get them, since who knows when the TPG's will be in a mood to gives 70's to any of them? At one time some TPG's beleived there was no such thing as perfect, and nothing should get a 70, then those who want the perfect registry set, even of common coins, won't be able to stoke their pride at any price.

At the end of the day all you really have is a common coin only marginally better than one you could have got at 1/30 the price. That's something to be proud of?!!! Next people will be bragging about how much they spent on magic beans!

A common coin is a common coin... even if some TPG slaps the best grade possible on it, an allegedly perfect coin should logically only be worth marginally more than an almost perfect one! Especially since perfection is just an arbitrary judgement call anyway. (The TPGs often can't agree, even amonst graders in the same company, how perfect perfect actually is, and 69 to 70 is a rediculously thin line to have such a huge value jump!)

This is seriously insane... please tell me I'm not alone in thinking that!

I'll go ahead and discount it. A mintage figure is a fact. A condition is an opinion. I'm supposed to believe that a coin with a mintage in the hundreds of millions is worth $5000 just because some TPG thinks it's perfect today? Sorry, not buying it. The fact that MS 70 is a rarely achieved grade says a lot more about the graders than the coins, and maybe someday they'll loosen or tighten the standards... suddenly it may be eaiser to get a 70, or someday that might decide the 70's are actually 69's... and then how smart will the people who shelled out tons of money on the TPG's opinions of perfection going to feel? I honestly hope that happens, because that's one more step towards people storming the TPG's with torches and pitchforks for ripping them off all these years.

 

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I think you have a good point, but my only issue with these PF70 moderns with the huge premiums is the difference is next to nothing. Now, I don't claim to be that great of a grader...I think I have proven that in many of this forums "guess the grade" threads, but if you look a PF69 coin and a PF70 coin and put them next to each other (and covered the label) how many people here could tell them apart. I doubt I could and that's probably true of most people on this forum. Now, coins graded 66, 67, 68 and even 69 might be a bit different...we could probably distinguish those but the difference between 69 and 70 is so minimal it's hard to believe. So, for me it's not worth the money. I know there is probably some minimal difference...but if I can't see it with my own eyes it means nothing to me.

 

/amen

Precisely my belief, and why I think you'd have to be a sucker to pay $6000 for a 70 when a 69 of the same coin is only $20.

 

Where this logic fails is that if I broke those coins out of their cases and willing to bet you 5K that more come back graded 69's than 70's.

Prove to me that the 70 grade designation isn't random chance. I've looked over enlarged photo's of my 69's and can often find NO VISIBLE flaws. The 5000.00 to 20.00 difference in an absurd invention of the plastic and I'm telling you that as a strong supporter of graded slabs.

Ruben

 

You're not alone. MS70 is a figmint of TPG's imaginations. To be technical here, the only true "perfect" coins are the very very few that are the first single coins struck with a new die. After just one strike, dies are already deteriorating and disforming and wearing. So, how many truely perfect coins are out there in fact? Probably none.
Guy~

 

Yep, and even if that coin manages to get that perfect strike... very unlikely it won't lose a point or two (or three, or four, or five!) in condition before it manages to get out of the Mint unless it's handled very carefully... unlikely unless it's a proof, and even then doesn't take much to cross the 69/70 line.

 

True, for only one reason : I haven't seen any 19th century coins graded 70.

Yes, I most certainly can say it with a straight face. And here it is :

Buy the coin, not the population report !

I have a great deal of respect for you guys. But on this one, I must respectfully disagree.

 

I wonder if you were to take the same nice coin, say we would all agree is an MS-69, and submit it multiple times, from different provenances what the result would be?

Suffice to opin, if the coin were alleged to come from Stacks, or Superior etc. I wonder that it would get a loftier designation on the holder? I know TPG's of course deny this, but what part does provenance play in grading?

 

I started reading this response and thought I wrote it. Exactly what I would say.

 

It seems that nobody really has a problem with conditional rarities overall but only with respect to differentiating between a 69 and a 70. Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Again, I don't collect moderns and have very little experience with 69's and 70's. However the experience I do have tells me there is a difference between the two grades. Additionally, both NGC and PCGS are very reluctant to assign the 70 grade unlike the second tier TPG's like IGC.

The following coin is a 1993 Jefferson Commemorative PCGS MS69. When I submitted the coin, I was rather new to coin collecting and had no idea what to expect. When the coin came back an MS69, I was curious as to what kept if from a 70. Here is the photo.





Please feel free to tell me why this coin is not an MS70, and yes there is a very definitive reason.

 

there is a binoc coming out of his forehead a lil nick next to his neck some toning on the back and i am sure there are others i cant see without the coin in hand and it also looks like he just sneezed and didnt clean himself

 

Sorry, I should have mentioned that both of those are on the slab not the coin. The toning has no effect on the grade.

 

I have no idea, the coin looks great to me. I have no doubt there is something there...but for me nothing jumps out as an eyesore. I would prefer to buy a coin graded MS69 and save the extra money and buy another coin with it.

I don't personally own any coins graded 70 (I actually only have 1 slabbed coin for the moment) but from what I have seen is commemoratives are a lot more likely to grade 70 and as a result they don't carry the same kind of premium. I think the mint takes special care to make sure they have a higher quality control. I'd imagine most new commemorative coins and proofs will regularly grade 69 out of the box.

I have no problem with people buying coins slabbed at 70 if they are willing to spend the money...but I just personally don't feel the need. I'd be perfectly happy with a coin graded 69.

 

The same question could be asked as to why it's not an MS 68, as well. Who here can precisely answer that while listing criteria for assigning a coin 68, 69, 70....
I seriously doubt the top graders could do this on any regular basis and with discerning reasons.
Guy~

 

I mostly agree that a 68/69 is very hard, but generally I can see a difference, mostly in strike quality. Never the less, I agree that 68-70 is a crap shoot.

Ruben

 

Because that is really Danny Kaye and not Thomas Jefferson.

Ruben

 

uh - yeah it does and that is the ENTIRE point of this thread.

Ruben

 

I thought they used a loupe when giving out these absurd grades .
rzage

 

so? They're not supposed to use more than a 5x loop.

Ruben

 

OK. Let me rephrase. Just because YOU can't see the difference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The graders at NGC and PCGS can see the difference and assign the grade based on their evaluation of the coin. All this thread proves is that nobody on this board is qualified to be a professional grader (Doug excluded) because they can't differentiate between and MS69 and MS70.

To further illustrate my point. Take a look at this photo and look at the E in the word Architect. That mark is the difference between MS69 and MS70. How many of us missed it? PCGS didn't. If the coin didn't have that mark, why would you claim that it shouldn't be worth more money. In this instance it appears there is an actual difference between MS69 & MS70. With regards to proof coins, you can't evaluate the surfaces from a photo, it is impossible. But I am sure there is a difference between the PF69 & PF70's as well.



:headbang: