cleaning coinss

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This subject will never, ever go away as most everthing is

This subject will never, ever go away as most everthing regarding the subject is a matter of opinion or preference or the old adage "this is how I learned". Always (as all things are) full of truth, lies, misconceptions, rumors etc.

Here's the truth as far as I know it:

People with less than 5 years should never attempt to clean any coin with above bullion value in any manner.
People with less than five years will attempt this no matter what we say here.
Coin cleaning can be done with improvement/preservation by very knowledgable people.
People without that knowledge will ruin coins as we speak.
At least half of the Morgan dollars in slabs have been dipped.
No one thinks it to be their coins that are the ones that have been dipped.
Most dealers I know (99% of 100 or more) will dip coins on occasion.
All dealers tell customers not to ever dip or clean coins.
Copper cannot be dipped with success (that I know of).
Copper can be re-toned or colured sometimes with amazing results by the most unlikely agents.
Silver is the easiest to dip, gold second (it rarely needs it) and copper impossible.

The most important thing we can tell new people is to change the adage - instead of saying "oh we don't clean coins or it ruins a coin" we should say "look, a coin only has 1 original surface or skin and it only has that surface if untouched, rubbed or in any way changed from the day it left the mint". "If your lucky you have one of those coins with original skin or surface intact". "What you do or do not do could change or leave original that coin for the rest of time".
Keep that in mind before you ever think it needs any additional treatment to it and then wait 5 years.

 

Yeah, I'd say dripping is a typo. The articles appeared to be copied and they weren't written by any numismatic authorities I recognized. But dripping sounds kinda cool, let's come up with a dripping cleaning method.

 

Thought it might be but I wasn't sure. If you come up with an alternative method for cleaning that works, let me know. I was also reading the other day about that banned chemical that all the enthusiasts used to love and rave about. Wonder if I can get it from Mexico?

 

Are you talking about sodium or potassium cyanide? Probably the first dipping agent used, and to my knowledge the only ones that has actually killed numismatists. They react with acid ( such as in stomach or commercial acid dips) to release the cyanide ( which is a killing agent).

I HIGHLY recommend to not use these.

Jim

 

I think there has to be exceptions, such as in the case of a friend of mine who bought a Jefferson Nickel collection in a Whitman folder for basically face value off eBay. All the coins were picked out of rolls back in the 50's and 60's so they were all high grades and alot had FS and would have cost him alot more individually graded. There was an orange colored rectangular residue on the obverses of some of the coins that he asked me to look at and from what I gathered, those coins did'nt fit snug in their hole so the owner Scotch taped them across the front to hold them in 40+ years ago and then the tape was removed prior to selling them. My only solution was to soak them in alcohol, dip them in warm water and pat dry them which worked like a charm.

 

Thanks Jim. I read about this in the Travers' book.
"Nonabrasive cleaning methods are being recommended increasingly before long term storage. One chemical in particular, trichlorotrifluoroethane, was used for years as a degreasing solvent and prized for not leaving a residue on the coin's surface. Trichlorotrifluoroethane is no longer available because the federal government identifies it as an ozone-destructive solvent and, consequently, has banned it. Preservation experts recommend the use of denatured alcohol in its place"
The passage also goes on to talk about Dissolve (trichlorotrifluorethane) and the company that produced it which is E & T Kointainer Company. They came up with a substitute product called Koinsolv. I've used it. It is okay. Didn't harm my coins but it does not take away any of the 'white spots' that I was hoping to bet rid of.
Is the Dissolve or trichlorotrifluorethane the same product you were thinking about?
(By the way I was only half joking about trying to get some in the country.)

 

I agree. At least from what I have read it is not only necessary but 'required' as a collector to preserve the coin. I have only read a few books but they all recommend some form of 'cleaning' if the damage to the coin can be arrested. I know first hand from tarnished coins that I have seen that the tarnish will continue to eat into the coins surface.

 

Cyanide compounds react with gold or silver and are used in mining operations, so they are well adapted to "dipping", but they were also use by the Nazi as suicide capsules, in Jonestown koolaid, and in commercial fumigation. It is still used by some dedicated old time entomologists in "killing jars" since it kills insects almost instantly, and it is many old time murder mysteries ( Agatha Christie) loved to use it "almond smell" as a plot point. Still available in US if you know where to look. But DEADLY.

Years ago I used trichlorotrifluoroethane for cleaning printed circuit boards, etc. I would not expect it to take off any white spots or toning. I have not tried R-134a refrigerant ,Tetrafluoroethane, but it might work well, and is not an Ozone hazard. It can be bought at Walmart. It should be less reactive to metal, but may retain a de-greasing action. I haven't tried it, but would be n interesting experiment. It would not leave a residue and should not harm metal.IMO.

Jim

 

I really feel for this, MorganMan, guy. I wonder if you sent the coin in to be "properly cleaned" that the acid would remove the improper cleaning. Acid does eat away at the surface.

 

Thanks for the information. Would love to hear what, Jim? says also.

 

Doug is correct in this. Propyl bromide, the main ingredient, does easily turn acidic with water. The other ingredients seem to be relatively safe for metal ( the oxygenated hydrocarbons could be a mix of acetone like chemicals. I agree with Doug that advertising generally says what they hope you believe. Looking fairly at it, the use of this compound used properly would probably not damage the coins, but I prefer acetone if needed myself, and I am relatively conservative ( pun) and I feel safe using only a few chemicals for my coins that I have experience. IMO.

Jim
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From what iam reading, This is not for the beginner!! Would use the least
Costic soap or chemical to clean the coin, Yet iam not a big fan! Leaving
Original patina is always best!!

 

Welcome to Mr. Roger's neighborhood. :kewl:

 

All in the terminology. If you ask a question without the correct descriptor or key word, you don't get an answer to your question. You get to dance.

 

LOL...and let the dance begin.

 

Non sequitor.

 

Thanks for the info. Will definitely keep it and what Doug said in mind,
Eric

 

I certainly agree with this! The question is often "Is this an original patina" and then " Is this patina stable at this stage so I can leave it alone". I don't use any kind of soap or detergents, as for their purpose, they have to have a degree of harshness. Even intact baby skin is more resistant to acids, alkali , and moisture than a copper surface. Using a solution with an unknown chemical makeup is more dangerous to coins than using one where the active chemicals are known or determined by experimentation and can be expected to react certain ways. I wouldn't apply acetone to a baby's skin , but I would to a coin surface. Like most, many decades ago, before I knew better, I harshly cleaned a coin with Bon Amai, because it didn't scratch plastic or glass in the lab like Ajax or such and was advertised as "Scratch Free". Unfortunately it did scratch coins.

As I said many posts ago, terms such as cleaning, dipping, conservation, are seen differently by many numismatists, and just their mention sets some people on edge. Many are experienced, knowledgeable ones, who see a different interpretation of the word itself, others are repeating advice from others and really don't understand there is a difference of degree. IMO.

Jim