Reply to Thread

Message:: [QUOTE="Insider, post: 3048327, member: 24314"]Much of this has probably been posted here and in past discussions.  Nevertheless, a little reinforcement may put the "stake" into this thread. Words mean something.  With our different backgrounds, even something as simple as "cleaned" gets battered all around and is perceived differently by each of use.  One common example found on CT is a coin with a few hairlines from mishandling being labeled as "harshly cleaned!" <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie46" alt=":facepalm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Just about everything associated with coins happens in DEGREES.  Degrees of strike, degrees of wear, degrees of damage, and degrees of unoriginality.  Then we have DEGREES OF KNOWLEDGE to really screw things up.  I'm going to use some of the posts here to "spin-off" without trolling anyone in particular. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie14" alt=":angelic:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Cherd, posted: "I've been reading through the last handful of posts in response to this subject, and I'm finding it difficult to formulate meaningful responses. (?) That's because the majority of what is being said actually aligns with the points that I've been trying to make, however, is presented as being in disagreement. I think that we are all of the same opinion for the most part, (?) and the back and forth can be chalked up to mis-interpretations of what the other is saying. So I'll take a shot at whittling things down to what I see as the major sticking point. First off, in this context, "cleaning" means an action that alters the surface of the coin in some way YES!  You got it!  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie59" alt=":joyful:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />(Not picking off dirt or dipping in water). NO, you didn't <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />  Please see above: "DEGREES." The whole modern aversion to cleaning isn't because people don't like cleaning in general, it's because the purists have trended toward an extreme preference for "original" surfaces (which have ALWAYS been desirable to EVERYONE. I consider your usage of "purists" to mean "knowledgeable" because the majority of folks I interact with - both long-time professionals and collectors HAVE NO IDEA WHAT AN ORIGINAL, FRESH AS MINTED (Mint State) COIN LOOKS LIKE!  and everyone else has followed along (I'm not indicating that I have a problem with this). Now, the definition of "original" is another debate all together, ONLY IF THE DEBATER IS ONE OF THE IGNORANT I just mentioned above. but for the sake of argument, lets say it's "a surface that hasn't been intentionally, physically or chemically altered for the sake of improving appearance". The debate seems to have shifted toward delineations in "cleaning" skill level between "professionals" and lay people. On this we agree. GOOD  I could restore an old car in my garage, but the results will be waaaay better if I pay a professional, fair enough. But, no matter the quality of the work, a restoration was done either way. And, the car is no more-or-less "original" regardless of who did the work. From an "original" perspective, there is no better or worse, there's only "yes or no" (original or not). "If you can't tell that it is cleaned, then it's not cleaned": This is the key sticking-point ONLY to someone such as me <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie7" alt=":p" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie33" alt=":cigar:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie93" alt=":troll:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> who loves to pick out little silly things to make a point that does not matter or change anything just to prove how "right" I am.  that we seem to have here. The real question is: Why am I taking the time to hash over nonsense that has been asked and answered over-and-over when I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOU - you win, ANYTHING ANYONE DOES TO A COIN after it is struck makes it UNORIGINAL! "Do you truly value original surfaces? Or are you anti-cleaning because everyone else is anti-cleaning?" (AKA: anti-cleaning because it decreases value)  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie11" alt=":rolleyes:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie92" alt=":stop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> I will not accept this misinformed premise. Most coins that are CLEANED CORRECTLY so that no one can tell INCREASE in eye appeal so their value and desirability are INCREASED. This isn't a loaded question. I'll go ahead and admit that, while I don't feel strongly one way or the other, I probably fall more into the later category. But, if you "truly value original surfaces", then the "if you can't tell that it is cleaned" definition holds no water. What I hear is, "I prefer a more aesthetically pleasing, altered coin as long as it was done so well that nobody can tell." Reworded: "I don't value original surfaces, I prefer aesthetics". BINGO!  Another way: "I'm willing to improve aesthetics as long as it doesn't decrease the value (nobody can tell)". And this is all fine! Collect how you want! BINGO! But, being of this frame of mind, it jumps out at me when people say that cleaning is bad ONLY when done in such a way that is noticable and lowers the appearence and value of a coin. because it alters the surface, and then proceed to recommend that kind of thing should be left to professionals. This is contradictory (?) if originality is the primary consideration. Actually, it is more about the KNOWLEDGE of the person. Cherd continued: "If a person pays someone to clean a coin, and it comes back looking better than before, then they know that it has been cleaned. If they subsequently sell it to a person that legitimately appreciates originality, then there is a bit of a moral dilemma (What he doesn't know won't hurt him????). If the coin is slabbed without details by a person that knows what happened (even if nobody could ever tell), then that is even worse." LOL.  Let's complicate this more and bring morals in.  How much should I gouge the eyes out of this ignorant collector who cannot tell the coin was cleaned professionally?  Better yet, I'll sell the stupid, ignorant idiot this whizzed XF as he cannot tell that either.  Mo money. Mo money.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie85" alt=":smuggrin:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />  Please...there must be some Religious Forum you can reserve this moral stuff for. Cherd, posted: "If quantum mechanics has taught us anything, <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie90" alt=":spitoutdummy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> it's that the very act of measuring anything is destructive. At the quantum level, the system could be completely disrupted, whereas, at the macro level, the effect could be negligible. These things are all points on a very large DEGREE? <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie7" alt=":p" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />  spectrum. Technically, the very act of touching a coin "alters" the surface in some way. The effect is imperceptible, but changes at some scale do occur. Is this destructive? Unless you've just finished eating a greasy pizza and didn't wash your hands, we should all agree that the answer is "No". Of course, we would all also agree that a wire brush would be a "Yes". I guess it all comes down to where you draw the line, and where other's draw their lines. Quite frankly, I'm (?) not all that worried about it, But only after I switch from "morals" to bring up "quantum mechanics."  PLEASE...  You win, you won, way up this post.  I just like a good debate. But, I'm good to let this one go, we could go around in circles for days.  Bet you don't let it go. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie85" alt=":smuggrin:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]

Create my FREE Account!

Log in or Sign up

Reply to Thread

Useful Searches