Cleaned or Polished die?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by BigTee44, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    bravo bravo but it is so elementary my dear GD that i could talk on the phone while typing this. surely you have lost some of your superpowers. time for another demotion :p
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Die polishing and harsh cleaning both create raised and incuse lines on dies, harsh cleaning creates both raised and incuse lines on a coin. Even a simple scratch on a coin or a die creates a raised and incuse line or lines.

    Some folks don't understand that, or never realized it, nonetheless it is quite true. And there is a very simple reason it is true, it is because whenever metal is scratched (and that's what die polishing and harsh cleaning is - scratches) when whatever is doing the scratching and creating the incused line/s the metal that is being displaced by the scratch merely piles up on or both sides of the incuse line that is being formed thus creating 1 or 2 raised lines.

    This cannot be avoided, it happens every single time, because of the very nature of metal.

    I think you need to look at those pictures again. Are they parallel and similarly deep ? Yes. Do they all stop at the same distance from the devices ? Most definitely no. Some stop near the devices, some stop at the devices, and some continue onto the devices themselves and then on past them.

    I also think you need to read my original post more carefully and actually think about what I said, without just dismissing it. And, I'm still waiting for you tell us what you think happened and describe how it happened for us. As of yet you haven't said a word about that.
     
    spock1k, micbraun and Kentucky like this.
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Picture 7 and the last picture disagree. That is certainly uniform spacing around the lettering and distance to the rim ect.

    That said I couldn't see any of what the pictures are showing in that video watching it on a mobile device
     
  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I will add nothing of my own input. Let the readers take those images onto other fora, in front of other numismatists, and see what that is called. I refuse to let you spread more misinformation by arguing with you; your behavior is identical to Insider's.
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah the lines do not run up to the edge of the devices in this picture, in the fields they stop about the same distance away -

    [​IMG]

    - but they do run across the feathers and stars.


    And they do run up the edges of the devices in this one -

    [​IMG]


    - as well running across the sun and on across the rays.

    And that's exactly what I said they do. Those diagnostics are also the reason for my explanation of how this happened in the my first post in this thread.

    There are 3 possibilities to explain the lines on this coin.

    1 - die polish lines

    But it is impossible for die polish lines to be on the devices. And, as Dave pointed out previously, die polish lines almost always run right up to and stop at the edge of the devices. But these pictures show that there are obviously lines on the devices, and they show that some lines stop before they reach the devices. Therefore these lines cannot be the result of die polishing.

    2 - harsh cleaning of the coin

    The problem with this possibility is that on a coin the devices are the high point. And if harsh cleaning were attempted on the coin the devices (the high points) would be subjected to the most abuse and show at least as many lines as the fields show. But they do not. Instead the devices only show a few lines here and there, but the lines are definitely there. So the coin could not have been harshly cleaned or this would not be the case.

    3 - the die was harshly cleaned resulting is scratches on the die

    On a die the devices are the low point, so they would be subjected to the least abuse, and the fields are the high point so they would be subjected to the most abuse. This is what the pictures show, the devices have a few lines, the fields have a lot of lines.

    Given all of that, it cannot be #1. And given the diagnostics it cannot be #2. So #3 seems to be the only explanation left.

    Now Dave says that's bad information. But is it ? I'm just describing what the pictures show us. Do you deny that's what the pictures show us Dave ? If you do, please say so, and give us another possible explanation. I'm ready to listen, and will even change my mind if you can counter the points I have made.

    Or if you prefer and want to leave it at - we'll have to agree to disagree - I'm OK with that too.
     
    Kasia, micbraun and spock1k like this.
  7. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    i must say all these years and only 2 best answers. things can only look up now that i have decided to follow you
     
  8. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    You have two best answers...!!! Can I touch the hem of your robe?
     
  9. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    Sure :D
     
  10. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    That made me kachorkle... Nicely done!
     
  11. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I am miraculously cured of my bronze disease...Praise Spock
     
  12. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Fair enough. I have to disassemble the OP's video - I want to capture a couple frames where it sure looks like at least a few of the lines are visible on the reverse, and process them for more clarity if possible to think about things, which I lack the time to do tonight - but I'll offer a couple tidbits first. The initial tidbit is, if you read what I've posted, I have not referred to this coin as "harshly cleaned." I've used the term "brushing," true, but near as I can tell I haven't called it cleaned. If anyone thinks that's my rock-solid conclusion, I have chosen my words wrongly.

    That's because I'm not yet sure if mechanical cleaning is what did this. That is the working theory, but a couple things are still unclear to me about it. I'm just sure it's not what you think it is, and here's why (I'm repeating myself, but whatever):

    I don't believe the visible lines are much different on the devices, just differing somewhat in appearance because the inside of the devices (recessed on the die, of course) are as-pressed by the working hub and unpolished. It's physically impossible to polish them. Their surfaces are therefore much "rougher," used in quotes because they're hardly rough themselves. All the same this point is moot to me because I can see the artifacts of whatever happened here just as heavily passing through the devices - including the rays - as the fields.

    All I need to disprove your theory, though, is to refer you to the sun on the obverse, and ask (again) how you'd manage to get the tool evenly to the inside edge of a can in one smooth stroke, as the lines crossing it appear. It's just_not_possible, man, and arguing against that - which your theory requires - is pretty much untenable despite the fact you're doing it. And the rays? Um, no, not at all. You'd be lucky to get a mark on them at all.

    I haven't wrested all the information possible from the video yet, but I still don't think all those lines are there in it, and these are two separate states of one coin. Sure looks to me like the toning is scrubbed off. For the record, I'm thinking whatever hit it was more spongiform than "brush" in nature. And likely hit both faces simultaneously, in a (viewed from the obverse) southeast-northwest direction. Emery cloth in fairly large hands could probably do it, thumb and the sides of the first finger.

    And so far a damaged working hub hasn't been eliminated from my differential either. They'd have to have caught it quick or there'd be a whole bunch more of these extant, and what I've learned in almost 15 years of photographing coins would have to be altered drastically to allow for toning to form over such prominent lines, and I'd have to believe that the toning is still there (I don't), but even a 0.001 probability is a non-zero probability.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'm not suggesting you could do it in "one smooth stroke", to the contrary, just like you, I know it could not be done. However, I also know that when a die gets grease on it, and we all acknowledge that dies do get grease on them, that grease gets cleaned off. It gets cleaned off the fields and it gets cleaned off the recessed devices, it isn't just left there. And during that cleaning the lines on the devices would be produced.

    Yes I agree, when an ASE die is hubbed the devices do not get polished afterwards like the fields do. However, I also know that there are several different processes that the die goes through after it is hubbed, such as cutting of the keyways used during the hubbing process, polishing the die, and frosting the devices. And that the die is closely examined for quality before during and after each of these processes. And that quality control would catch any flaw (especially one like this) created during the hubbing process resulting in the die being discarded, and most likely the guilty hub being discarded as well. So the chances of what's on this coin having been created during the hubbing process are nil.

    edit - And let's not forget the most obvious point. If those lines had been produced during the hubbing process, the lines in the fields would have been polished away when the die was polished.


    When you do, please also notice that the affected areas of this coin have luster on them which is plain to see in that video, and his pictures. Then consider what I said in post #11 of this thread -


    And Dave, please understand, this is a discussion, not an argument. This isn't a question of somebody being right and somebody being wrong. This is a question of trying to figure out how this coin came to be. And to do that I have considered the points I have made, and it is that consideration that led me to my conclusions. I ask you to consider the same things.

    edit - So, as I see it, of the 3 possibilities I mentioned above, #1 and #2 simply are not possible, for the reasons I have given. That leaves only one - #3. So no matter how unlikely it seems, #3 pretty much has to be the answer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    This is absolutely not an argument; I think we both want fact to be the only winner.

    I just can't believe your theory when the lines run all the way to the edges of the sun. That's a complete dealbreaker to me, and I therefore have to figure something else that fits. The only way those lines cover that area is if they hit it when it's a positive (which is why I mused about the hub; I agree it's darned unlikely).

    Did you consider your (correct) opinion of the level of quality control for ASE dies also precludes your theory?

    Just a quick post; I'm on lunch. Gotta go home, learn to use Avidemux and disassemble the video.
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    OK, now it gets fun. :D

    Here's about the most telling frame I found in the video:

    ASEframecap.jpg

    From the rest of the video, the toning is there in full glory, as offered by the OP in the initial images. From this frame, it is clear that the lines are also there, in the exact strength pictured. It is clear, now, that the lines predate the toning, or they would have wrecked it. I am therefore completely wrong in thinking the images are two different stages of the coin. However, lines that sharp toning in normal progression is astounding in itself; the lines should interfere with or alter - if not completely prevent - thin-film interference, which occurs in a vertical depth very likely much less than the depth of those lines. We're talking about thicknesses measured in the ten-thousandths of a millimeter.

    Heavy-duty thought is required.

    None of this does anything to address the intuitive obviousness of your theory being wrong, though, Doug. You just_can't_stop lines short of an incuse device on a die, and you just_can't_reach the sides of an incuse device with something wiping the die. Simply not possible, and anyone who can visualize the surface of a die with devices should see that clearly. The only way to mark the edges of a device - like the sun, as the best example - is when it's a positive.

    It also seems...too cute, maybe?....that both sets of "wipes" are on the same part of each die as well; that's why I floated the emery cloth idea (which, for the record, would create this effect on the surface of a struck coin). I have no idea whether the location of the lines is really relevant to how they came about, but I have to admit their location on what would be the same part of both dies - as you'd expect grease to appear if it did - does tend to support your thinking. It's just that the previous points against are absolute dealbreakers.
     
  16. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Problem coin, abraided with something, toned to cover it up. Exactly what imparted the lines on the once-pristine coin and why, I'm not sure, because, to quote Bill Fivaz, "I wasn't there when it happened."

    Send me a non-problem ASE and I'll duplicate this look for you (without the toning).
     
    Dave Waterstraat likes this.
  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    But how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
     
    spock1k likes this.
  18. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    So abrasions of that nature won't interfere with the normal toning process? Interesting. I'd have thought they would, but I've never tried to tone a hairlined coin. Another topic for the research list.

    Which is already too long for my expected remaining lifetime. :)
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  19. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    Silver is silver, and I never said the toning process applied was normal (although it doesn't look bad). Things that would interfere with the toning process are other chemicals, oils, a different crystalline structure of the metal (see "pull-away toning") based on flow during striking. I'll up my offer to artificially tone the abraded area of the ASE I'm sent using paper and heat. The result will probably be ugly, but it will be toned.
     
  20. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Hmmm. I thought the gouges interfering with viewing angle would have an effect, considering the tiny distances involved. But like I said, I've never tried it. :)
     
  21. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    but that still doesn't explain how luster is still present. You can see the luster best on the reverse where the toning is in the video, so that's what I'm confused on.

    When I first seen it I just said cleaned and retoned, but then I see luster, then I thought polished dies.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page