Chopmarks: Desired history or a ruined coin??

Hello all. I have had something on my mind for a while, but being new to this forum, I wanted to get a feel for others' opinions on a matter.

Chopmarks. I *LOVE* them on a coin.

I am very new to graded coins and US coins at that. However, for the last 5 years (when I started collecting), I have been into world coins. I love all kinds of silver world coins, and typically I tend to gravitate towards silver coins from the 1600's-the 1800's. Now, my collections is nowhere near the caliber that I imagine some member's collections are, but it's mine and I love it.

I specifically got interested in Mexican coinage, which is convenient because we seem to have a nice surplus of it here in Texas. Specifically, I discovered the 8 Reales coins and my battleship was sunk.

After buying 10 or so 8 Reales coins, I realized many had symbols "punched" or "stamped" into them. I learned about the chop-mark. If my understanding is correct, merchants all across the world, and primarily in Asia, would have their own seals or symbols unique to them, which they would use to test coins. Again, if I am correct, they would use a hammer and a punch or stamp to strike the coin, leaving their unique mark on the coins, and by listening for a certain pitched ring, they could tell that the coin was genuine. If they or a merchant in a neighboring village recognized the mark on a coin from a merchant he knew, he also knew the coins(s) were "safe." If I am mistaken, please correct me.

So I found this marking of coins to be fascinating by historical standards personally. I then sought to purchase "attractively chop-marked" 8 reales coins for my collection. In doing this and learning about the coins, I also found that many collectors deemed the coins "numismatically-flawed" and many did not share my fascination with such examples.

In summary, as I am looking at my collection this evening, I wanted to just see what others out there thought. Also, If I am ill-informed about the use of chop-marking, please feel free to correct me. Thanks for reading and replying!!

 

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I think they are interesting.

And if others don't, embark on a quest to show everyone how awesome they are, create interest and desire, and then watch as the prices go up.

 

I happen to really enjoy chopmarked coinage, especially on Spanish colonial pieces.

Jesse

 

Personally, and just personally, I love countermarked coins, but not bankers marks. I would consider chop marks to be modern day bankers marks.

Just my personal taste though, and I can see how people would like chop marked coins.

 

I tend to find the ones like this distracting, though there are the more scarce types which are in relief and those I do like.

 

I find them historical & honestly they dont bother me, same goes for bankers marks on ancients. I dont mind one or two. I dont care for test cuts though, they're a bit different.

 

I personally buy most of my Reales and Trade dollars without . Though reales were the coin of choice in China till the Trade dollar came along I don't mind one or 2 chops especially since they usually sell a bit cheaper . If the chop is neat and doesn't harm the other side too much . Those that are loaded with the opposite flattened I tend to stay away from as do most of the TD and reale collectors I know . But the old idiom still holds true buy what you like .

 

I find them interesting. have 1 example with and 1 without. best of both worlds.

 

Btw Gnomey, yes you are correct. In China the preferred form of silver was Mexican 8 reales. Heck, the Mexicans went back to 8 reales denomination after they had went to pesos specifically for the Chinese market. Great Britain, French, and US trade dollars were made to imitate the Mexican pieces. You are also correct that chopmarks were put onto coins as merchant verification. After the merchant spent the time to authenticate a piece, he would put his mark on it so that if he ever received it again he could save time by not having to reverify the piece. Even back then fakes were a huge problem in China, and merchants constantly had to be vigilant.

 

Personal opinion? Don't care for them.

But to each his own.

 

I see the bottom line here as a question on why you collect coins. If you are only into coins for their potential cash appreciation, you will only buy those that will appeal to the greatest number of collectors active in the hobby when you are ready to sell. That requires a crystal ball to predict whether the current super grade fad (MS69 selling for multiples of MS68) continues or whether something else becomes the fad. Safest bet right now would be that more people will want your coins without chops but there is never a guarantee what people will do next.

If, on the other hand, you collect for the purpose of enjoying the coins and have full intent of leaving a huge box of stuff for your grandchildren to sell in 50 to 100 years, you really should be buying the coins that make you happy and not care whether the two Dougs above and a heap of TPG employees consider them damaged. About half of the replies you have above are from people who collect ancients and a larger percentage of ancient collectors are forgiving of things that happened to coins as result of their being used as coins certainly including chop/banker/counter marks. I don't even hold it against an ancient coin if some guy in 400BC scratched his initials into his coins. I will pay less for the coin because most people would avoid the damaged goods but I still would enjoy owning the coin and hope my grandson forgives me buying it when he has trouble selling it in 2050.

There is a World/Ancient dealer by the name of Frank Robinson who said, "Love your coins for what they are, not what they are worth." He is a smart fellow. Don't pay too much for anything without taking into account all factors including how many people will turn up their noses at the coin because of a chop. On the other hand, if you can get a discount for something that adds interest to you, why not buy it?

P.S. If you like chopped Spanish, you might be dangerously close to being interested in ancients. Be careful. Addiction is quite possible. Example:
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/f79.html

 

Sometimes the mark is to make the coin legal tender in a country. Sometimes the mark is to re-value the coin. Sometimes the mark is simply to check the metal content in an attempt to approve the coin's intrinsic value.

Here's an ancient coin of Athens (Tetradrachm) that includes several banker's marks on the obverse and a couple deep test cuts on the reverse.

 

This stamp valued the coin at 2R in 1845 & made the coin legal for use inside Costa Rica.

 

Chop marks are AWESOME!!! I think most of your post is correct, I only question this part:

I'm not quite sure if that is accurate, although it very well may be.

Ignore them, they're idiots.

...Especially that Doug guy (the hatted one), he's a real shady character.

 

Exactly, which is why I find coins fascinating. To me, a countermark is a coin, just a coin struck onto another coin. There is a whole field in ancient numismatics that do not care what the original coin was, only the countermark. I believe Howgego wrote the standard book on them.

But, like Doug, I can see how merchant marks could be an interesting study. But also, like Doug said, they were not from the government, which is why numismatists have rightly judged them damage and lowered the coins value due to the damage.

You know what though? That is GREAT for you if you like chopmarks! You get to buy coins which are interesting to YOU, for less. Cool beans. This hobby should always be about your own personal gratification above anything else, so if you like chopmarked coins that means you can buy more for the same money, and get a better selection than might otherwise be the case. If I were into them, I would be happy the hobby lowers the price for chopmarked coins, more for me to love.

 

Problem is MOST collectors only care about the monetary value a coin has or will bring in the future. So chopmarks and such are looked down upon.

Its one of the things I really appreciate with ancients. Value is pretty much irrelevant and whatever damage an ancient has over thousands of years, doesnt matter usually.

Tooling and such, thats different.

 

Well, I "LOVE" 'em!!

=> here are a few of my banker's and/or countermarks ... awesome history!!