CHILE, 10 PESOS 1968, ESCUADRA LIBERTADORA DEL PERÚ, RESTRIKE, SILVER PROOF!!!

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Michael H Webb, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    Ebay item numbers 142975345084 and 253920822004 are obvious fakes:
    [​IMG]
    The metal is poured into a sand-cast mold by an artisan from San Pedro La Paz, Chile. See https://www.yapo.cl/biobio/arte_ant...onmemorativa_10_pesos_1968_chile_55689391.htm

    Below is an authentic CHILE 1968-SO ESCUADRA LIBERTADORA PLATA 10 PESOS:
    [​IMG]

    The Ebay merchant carriebear31 has sold at least a dozen of the fake coins on Ebay (at a loss if the silver purity is to be believed).

    I have reported the listings and called Ebay concerning this issue to no avail for months.

    Considering paying the $60 dollars to "Express" grade one of the counterfeit coins by the Numismatic Guarantee Corporation. NGC would then return it well within the 30 day Ebay Guarantee period. Then, Ebay should pickup the grading fee considering they have willingly failed to protect the market in these coins.

    Thoughts?

    Best regards,

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  3. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I have no idea if that would work, but it’s clearly a fake. Good on you for being diligent and trying to get rid of the seller. @ToughCOINS can you maybe shed light on eBay policy?
     
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  4. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    EBay has long been successful in deflecting responsibility for the authenticity of merchandise on its website by requiring the listing sellers to agree to list only genuine goods. Doing so minimizes their cost of doing business, but it fails to protect buyers against unwitting sellers of counterfeit goods, or worse, predatory sellers of known fakes.

    Only a serious challenge in the courts, with a LOT of legal clout - a full-blown class action - would intimidate them enough to do anything about it. Anything less than tens of millions of dollars will be insufficient to get their attention.
     
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  5. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    There are authorized restrikes, however, these are not them.

    As an example, when it is inconvenient for a country to change their dies, they will authorize their mint, often in a foreign land, to press restrikes to replenish their circulating coinage. These restrikes are graded with the word "restrike" featured prominently on the slab label:
    [​IMG]
    Chile has not authorized any restrikes ever.

    Simply counterfeit coins are not graded and are returned to their owner in a plastic bag.

    The ebay merchant insists on calling them a "restrike" and insists that they are a legitimate KM# 183 coin from the Krause catalog!
     
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  6. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    I purchased a replica coin not long ago on ebay. It was clearly listed as a "Replica" coin. This 1867 replica coin was minted at the Case de Moneda de Mexico:
    [​IMG]
    According to Ebay guidelines, replica coins should be clearly listed as replica coins.
     
  7. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    That’s what I figured. Thank you for your insight.
     
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  8. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    You’ve convinced me. And I have a warm place in my heart for Chile. Unfortunately, I have no clout with eBay, haha.
     
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  9. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

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  10. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter** Supporter

    Good on you Michael Webb for your efforts on this issue. I hope your are successful.
    I too have a soft spot for Chile and hate to see this happening.

    This website (in Spanish) discusses the appearance of fakes of this commemorative coin: http://monedasenchile.blogspot.com

    Other than that I have found no further reference to them, or of their origin.
     
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  11. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    Very sophisticated counterfeit described for the CHILE 1968-SO ESCUADRA LIBERTADORA PLATA 10 PESOS coin in the July 25th post, Escuadras Libertadoras falsas: ¿Cuál es el real problema?

    At least with the Ebay counterfeit, the artisan makes no secret of the replicas. A metallurgical test could be applied to these replica coins to answer how the seller can apparently lose money on the counterfeit side of the operation. For example, is this a simple money laundromat where some loses are better than total loses? Do these coins posses less pure silver than advertised by the artisan?
     
  12. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast Supporter

    Don't think it would be a cast coin with those proof fields, though the die itself could have been made from a sand-cast and then had the fields polished.
     
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  13. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    The polished fields are flat in the replica, while an authentic coin has slightly convex mirrored fields which allow metal flow.

    The fluted edge and the rim look too rough to survive more than a few pressings.

    The link to the artisan's web site is https://www.yapo.cl/biobio/arte_ant...onmemorativa_10_pesos_1968_chile_55689391.htm

    If an advertisement appears, it will eventually respond to the close window control in the upper right corner. Then, you may submit your questions to Valeria.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  14. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast Supporter

    It seems like a good way to fake proof coins. Sand casting would be a cheap and effective way to achieve that frosted look, thought it is noticeably more granular. Cast the die, polish the fields and the incuse parts stay rough and "frosty" looking. Not sure if that's what is being done here, seems like a less primitive method may be involved, but it works in theory :)
     
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  15. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    Yes, if the metal is a dentist's amalgam rather than silver, that would answer a number of questions. (In which case, the replica coins should be tested for mercury.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  16. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    I'm going to buy a counterfeit coin, then have it tested for silver, lead, and mercury for safety concerns by way of a special NGC submission.
     
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  17. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    I think it’s really awesome that you’re doing this, but be prepared to dump all this money down the drain. You might get a refund for the coin, maybe get the seller banned, but I doubt you’ll get your submission money back. Even so, my hat off to you good sir.
     
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  18. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast Supporter

    I don't doubt that the coin is anything other than solid silver as it's being marketed. The seller is selling what in their mind is a legitimate item, so it does not appear that they would lie about the material. Save yourself some money and just get a jeweler to test the purity. Or, if you have a decent sized flat magnet, angle it at about 45 degrees to the ground and slide the coin down it. If it slides very slowly then it's high purity silver. I've never actually seen or heard of a coin being struck from dental amalgam, though I suppose it's possible considering the odd materials we've seen used (compressed coal dust for example).
     
  19. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    Question is why the mirrored surface does not have any indication that metal flowed due to pressure?

    The surface is too flat to have been pressed at a normal temperature.

    Then, for the coins to be pure silver as advertised, the seller would loose money on the $20 to $30 less 10% for Ebay, 4% for PayPal, as well as cost of fabrication.
     
  20. Michael H Webb

    Michael H Webb New Member

    Did I mention the deep discount from the $180 per coin he sought a few months ago? The 50 g in weight?
     
  21. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast Supporter

    You won't see metal flow lines on any modern proofs with the naked eye, unless struck from heavily used dies.
     
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