changing TPG standards - US Gold

Interesting post. Thanks, Ben !

It seems there are two "deliverables" from a TPG which might vary in an intervention like this : turnaround time and assigned grade.

I suppose the turnaround time was much faster. I'm not sure that's a problem; I would have to know more detail. Sometimes owners walk into a restaurant's kitchen to expedite an order for various legitimate reasons.

Whether it affected the assigned grade is a far more serious issue. That's what lasts; that's what affects the market. If it didn't affect the grade, this whole thing is a non-event for me.

It's also possible the owner wanted to see his team in action for quality control purposes, or to personally evaluate how the enterprise was running.

 

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Great thread, guys! Thanks.

 

Substitute

I have collected, and owned many items in my life considered wealth.
You could take and substitute for coins, real estate, diamonds, stocks , bonds etc. Within each an individual is still with us , Mr. Ponzi. If it is about money , hobby or investment there is a Mr. Ponzi with in the group trying to geneate income from repackaged ideas. Leverage is being created with simple words. Mr. Ponzi says your house is worth more, and I can get it appraised for that bigger sum. Now commissions go up for every individual or company who touches your paper. It could be a coin, raw diamond , a new tech stock , a company with giving hope and not meeting expectations after spending as much on ad print as research. Mr. Ponzi was a real man, but now has assumed an identity that makes him immortal.
The corruption reached our level many years ago. Now we have an educated population as compared to a century ago. Knowledge is power. With power some can do, and have at will any thing they desire.

My opinion only
I speak for no others.

 

Hmmm, I really was finished with this thread earlier but, well... I'm wondering if I should hit enter or not.



























Oh Well, here goes...

Doug, I know you haven't in past and currently don't plan on actively supporting any of the TPGs. Never-the-less my point was, the TPG craze is sweeping the hobby today and there are a alot of "ahem, easily influenced" individuals who are blowing BIG money left and right in TPGed coins based solely on the words of others. Those purchases destabilize the market in both good and bad directions depending on which side of the counter and cash-register you're on. I read these words someplace on a coin forum today and how ironic they seem now, "Anyone can turn a Turd into a Diamond for a Buck..."

As to your insinuation that I'm spreading untruths, I can assure you that I have posted no lies or mistruths in my posts which are part of this thread or any other. Second hand information, yes perhaps, :secret: in some cases just like many numismatic stories repeated here and elsewhere and furthermore anyone who can operate a search engine can find the same information I did and much much more...

You also know me well enough to realize that (we're alike in some ways) I call em' like I see em as well and am far far far from being just a 'Yes Man.' Additionally, we've both seen and commented on obviously misgraded coins on this forum and in the same thread as a matter of fact. Can't call that a lie and I will defend myself...

This is the original statement which has brought us to this juncture in the road so-to-speak.

I simply provided documented information which stated otherwise. As far as an owner of a TPG selling coins his company has graded I think it's wrong and smacks of dishonesty. If federally regulated the practice might cease.

Take Care
Ben

 

They are still waiting for you. This is from their latest newsletter;

 

I have a great respect for your input and integrity. I can't speak for others, but I'm confident others do as well.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you were being "called out" on untruths. Perhaps there was a concern on a "leap of logic" regarding the significance of an executive intervening in the grading process. It appeared you felt that was serious. Perhaps it was, but based on what little I read I can't conclude there was a problem.

If we can keep this thread going just a little longer, you'll get your 5,000th post !

WOO HOO !

 

The whole point of a good TPG is that the coin is graded on it's merits and no other factor. Factors like big-volume submitters, insider connections, nepotism, hot coin market, high gold prices, etc... none of that should affect the grade.

After reading this thread, I'm feeling better about that.

So why crack 'em out for re-submission ?

If the coin is undergraded, and it's merits are the sole determining grade factor, why not send 'em in slabbed ?

My guess is that people think that the TPG, after their own evaluation, HAS to see the existing grade, and that biases their decision. The TPG doesn't want to bump the grade up because it will appear their standards have dropped over time (if a regrade) or or lower than a competitor's (if a crossover).

Is there anything to that ? Is a slabbed coin less likely to upgrade ?

 

In general yes, but not for the reason you assume. When a coin is already holdered the rim isn't as visible as if the coin is raw, which is a big disadvantage for the regrader. Therefore they are very careful about upgrading a coin because once that decision is made and the coin is cracked out then they are stuck with it even if there is a newly visible rim problem tat caused the coin to be net graded into the holder it had been in. By cracking out your resubmissions you give the grader proof that there are no hidden rim issues to worry about.



As for the question in the OP, I think it is fairly clear that the standards have changed for the looser over the last 5 years or so. The most obvious place where this has occurred is on Saints. The lines between 3's and 4's and between 4's and 5's have steadily eroded and the result is that there are some seriously ugly/baggy 64's and 65's out there now.

As one of the biggest crackout companies I can guarantee this is true, based on our experience.



As for the insinuation that the big submitters get preferential treatment that I can guarantee is false. The difference is that when the biggest submitteres get a coin back in the wrong holder they will crack them out and just resubmit them (because they really can grade that well), whereas the small submitter is less likely to submit a coin 6, 10, or 15 time to get the correct grade. I literally have seen mail totes that are full of rubberbanded cert tags that are waiting to be returned to the tpg's to be removed from the pop reports. The best resubmitters understand the long term cost of being committed to getting coins into the right holder, unlike the casual submitter. I cannot overstate this point.

 

Thank you Cave-Troll for this information it helps explain why slabbed coins appear to be vastly over-priced. When the submitter has to pay the (standard fee or even a large lot discount fee) 6-15 times until the coin is "correctly" graded that cost is subsequently rolled into the resulting encapsulated coin.

The beauty of the Bonedigger Grading Standard (BGS) is that when one wants to change the grade on a coin based upon changed grading standards or the price of tea in China the cost is only the use of an eraser or at worst a new 2x2 flip...

Take Care
Ben

 

Thanks guys. I'm just rambling, so tell me if this makes any sense :

For big and small submitters alike, multiple submissions only make sense if the $$$ jump from "low current grade" to "high real grade" is greater than the cost of multiple submissions. Submitting 10 times is somewhere between $150 and $300, depending on TPG and tier.

For many coins, that makes economic sense; it's worth the gamble. For others it doesn't, so the coin stays in an undergraded holder - and a sharp eye can get a good deal, and might score on the first upgrade attempt. Or not...

It always comes down to one's ability to grade with one's own eyes.

 

Or perhaps the total cost of grading many coins is spread out over those many coins. So yes, slabs would run a little higher. And the coins graded just once share the burden of the few submitted many times.