Certification of well circulated coins . . . .

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by ZoidMeister, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    Folks,

    I have never submitted any coins for certification, mainly because I haven't believed there was any return on investment with any of the coins that I owned.

    That was 30+ years ago.

    These days I'm seeing modern bullion issue rounds being certified, coins pulled from contemporary mint and proof sets being certified, and even well worn early type coins being certified.

    So I guess my question is: At what coin valuation does it make sense to send in a circulated coin to get certified? I mean, there is some cost in getting this done. In your eyes, where does that gamble make sense?

    Second question is: Does one certifying agency make more sense than another for moderately priced circulated coin?

    I'll admit, I have no idea what it costs these days with any of the certification firms to have this done. Where is the ROI worth the risk / cost?

    Z
     
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  3. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Maybe on key dates if you are talking modern US coins.
     
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  4. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    There are various opinions about what values need to be to justify certification, personally I'm around $200.
    Then again, often faked coins with lower values may benefit from certification, just to give buyers confidence to pay market prices.
     
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  5. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .


    It could be any coin series actually. I've got a few Capped Bust Halves in XF or better condition, Three Cent Nickels that look amazingly high grade, shiny Morgan Dollars out the backside, that kind of stuff.

    All 1964 US and earlier.

    Z
     
  6. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Also depends on your goals. If you don't sell then no real need to slab unless you want to help your heirs dispose of the coins for a fair price after you pass on.
     
  7. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    By the time you factor in all the fees and shipping and insurance both ways, figure you're gonna spend around 50 bucks to get a coin certified. Maybe a little less if you have something that qualifies for an "economy" tier, but fifty bucks is the general rule of thumb I use. (I send in a lot of World coins, which have to go to PCGS under their Gold Shield tier, which is a bit more expensive.)

    Is the coin something you'd be "upside down" in as an investment if you added another 40-50 bucks to your cost? There's the question. The next question is whether or not that even matters to you, or whether it will matter anymore 20, 30, or more years down the road.

    If you just want it slabbed, of course, that's something different entirely. I have a coin off at PCGS right now that cost me about four and a half bucks, and which probably catalogs for less than that, but I'm spending fifty bucks to slab it simply because I want it in a slab, to add to my collection (which happens to be almost all slabbed coins). It makes zero sense from an "investment" point of view, but it's a more sentimental than sensible decision in that particular case.
     
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  8. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I’d submit my “top 5 coins” to NGC just to see what they grade. You may be surprised :)

    Bust halves would be an excellent choice, especially high grade coins, early years or scarce varieties. If you select variety plus service, the Overton number will be mentioned on the label.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  9. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    People get coins graded and encapsulated for many reasons and a whole lot of those reasons have nothing at all to do with ROI.
    Some do it because they just like the coin or it holds some sentimental value and they want to preserve it at the time but makes no financial sense to have spent the money.

    Others get a coin graded because they are a novice and think it's what they are supposed to do to increase its value to a collector, which isn't true.

    Some people spend thousands grading common new business strike cents hoping for a MS68 or better out of boxes of new cents and sending in their best finds, while a lot of them don't make it, if one does its a payday. The rest sell for less than the fees.

    People do it for various reasons.

    As far as grading companies go, I think just about everyone will agree PCGS slabs sell for more than the others, more trusted and desirable to collectors than any of the others, but NGC is close to them.
    ANAC's is cheaper but sells for less, however their variety attribution game is strong where the others will only attribute certain varieties.

    Whatever their fees are, double it at least for shipping costs both ways securely, and that's the ballpark per coin which is why most submissions are a handful of coins at a time to spread out the total costs over a few coins at one time.
     
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  10. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    Thanks for the responses guys. A lot of factors I had not considered.

    I think my greatest conundrum in this is that SOME of my coins, the value varies GREATLY with a few degrees of the grade, more so than the cost of certification, while the base value of the coin is low.

    For instance, if a VF coin is worth $80 and an XF is worth $150, if almost makes sense when the grade of a raw coin is hugely subjective. My thoughts were that certification could remove most of the arguments over grade. This becomes even more debatable on MS state coins. But if the MS62 is worth only $60 . . . . the law of diminishing returns kicks in. I can see where the polycarbonate shell could help an eventual sale.

    I am older now and probably won't be adding to the stable, so to speak. I was curious from the respect of trying to find a way to assure fair value for my estate, while making sales a bit more seamless while still sucking air . . . . .

    I'm conflicted. It's a much easier decision if my coins were worth $1k+ each. Sunk cost per coin needs to make sense.

    Z

     
  11. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    I think this might be easier with a little "show and tell." Sorry for the crappy photos, but I think you'll get the idea. These are typical of the coins I am considering getting certified.

    Would anyone submit either these?



    Trade & Seated.jpg



    One other question: what is the typical turn around time for the certification agencies to do their job?

    Z
     
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  12. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & Eccentric Moderator

    Being conflicted is understandable.

    On top of that uncertainty, know also that it can be a real crapshoot, with TPG results being totally unpredictable. This is a double edged sword. If your expectations are realistic and your coins have been prescreened well enough, you might get a rare pleasant surprise. Disappointments always lurk around the corner, though.

    My last submission came with two minor disappointments, one slightly better than expected result, and two that performed about as well as I expected.
     
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  13. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Short answer to your question.... My wife knows about as much about my coins as she does changing the oil in her car. So I put a threshold of a $250.00 valuation personally. I do that simply so that she won't have to argue a coins authenticity once I leave this party.

    Like yourself, I see many moderns slabbed. I feel in most cases these are folks hoping for a very high grade that is appealing to the guys that compete with graded sets. It's the only logic I can place on it.

    There are times though that when a coin is a family heirloom.... Grandpa carried this one through the war or something like that. Those type coins I personally believe are the best candidates for TPG slabs. It offers future generations a glimpse into their family's past.

    Finally, yes I would have your trade dollar and seated dollar slabbed. Trade dollars are among the most counterfeited coins out there and most seasoned collectors are wary of a trade dollar not slabbed. And the seated, I would want it in a slab for the reasons I mentioned above.

    Edit.... If you have a local coin dealer that you do business with, ask him to piggy-back your coin submissions with his. I always get my coins certified this way.
     
  14. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    I just submitted a coin to PCGS.
    Submitting it with ALL of the expenses added together came out to about $115.

    That should give you an idea of what you should think the value of a coin is before you submit it.
    I use $150 as a minimum and prefer $200.

    In order of importance here's why I buy coins in slabs or have raw coins slabbed:
    1. Authentication (is it real)
    2. Originality (has it been cleaned or tampered with)
    3. Grade
    4. Storage protection
     
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  15. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    Ok, first and foremost, coins that are faked regularly should be slabbed to prove authenticity to prospective buyers, taking out the risk factor they will inevitably try to low ball you with. It will cost you the grading fees trying to sell it raw to make the sale in essence. The trade dollar is an example of that situation.

    Next, before submitting anything, go through and select your candidates with the 4 points kanga mentioned. And of course consider value. Once you have it down to the ones that bill maximize your resale value, critique the coin yourself and be harsh. Really evaluate it and don't do the "it's not that bad" while doing it or be optimistic, be harsh and pessimistic and likely you won't be disappointed when you get the grading results unless you get it as "cleaned" or "counterfeit" if you missed the signs. A lot of people simply don't grade their own coins as harshly as an objective 3rd party would and you need to realistically account for that in order to not be disappointed in the grades you get. a seller aims higher, a buyer aims lower, a 3rd party is supposed to give an opinion that got no skin in the game and that's how you should pre-grade your submissions, or at the least, pre grade it as a buyer, and as a seller, to get an idea of the range it shoudl fall into.

    As far as PCGS says of their grading:
    GRADING
    The coins are now ready for grading. Each order is distributed to graders based on their particular skill and expertise. While the graders are generally trained to handle coins from virtually all eras, they are assigned coins based on their strengths. The sheer number of graders assigned to each coin can also vary depending on the type of coin submitted. In all cases, at minimum, 3-4 graders are assigned to every coin for grading and verification.

    As each grader receives the order, they will enter the order number into the computer. This provides the contents of that order on the PCGS grading screen. Grader #1 will then enter his grade for the coin in question (and for each coin within the order until the order is completed) and close the order on his screen. Once Grader #1 has completed grading the order, the order is redistributed for Grader #2 to provide their grade and so forth. Each grader is not privy to the opinion of the other graders on any of the coins within that order.

    If their grades match in the computer, the coin would then go to a 3rd grader at the Grading Verification Stage. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, that coin will be assigned to a 3rd grader whose opinion is required to “break the tie.” As a PCGS standard, the coin would still be assigned to yet a 4th grader for verification to make sure the grade is accurate and consistent.

    The actual grading process itself consists of a few steps. The first is determining whether the coin is authentic. With the values of some coins today, counterfeits are not uncommon.

    Once the coin has been determined to be authentic, it is then checked for possible alterations.

    Once the graders have determined the coin to be authentic and unaltered, the final step in the process is to assign a grade to the coin in question. Graders are now focusing on the characteristics of the coin such as the strength and quality of toning, strike, marks, luster, and overall eye-appeal. All these characteristics are taken into account when assigning a grade."

    If I remember correctly PCGS uses 5x and then 10x magnification for grading as well as naked eye as the first step. Heck, 10x is used to grade diamonds, anything more than that is too much. and as far as lighting The best bulbs to use for grading coins are 75- to 100-watt incandescent.

    there's an article here from the PCGS website that sheds some light on PCGS grading :
    https://www.pcgs.com/news/tools-of-a-professional-coin-grader#:~:text=This allows the light source,over long periods of time
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  16. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Key dates and highly counterfeited coins.
     
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  17. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    5. Variety attribution (usually for R5+ varieties and it would be my #2 right after authentication)
     
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  18. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    Amazing that I omitted that considering how much I'm into die varieties/marriages.
    The coin I just sent to PCGS was mainly for the die variety, a 4+.
    But I could count that as part of #1, Authentication.
     
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  19. Derek2200

    Derek2200 Well-Known Member

    Around $150-$200.
     
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  20. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    The seated and trade dollars in your photo look like they may straight grade which would make them very desirable in the long term. Both are hard to find problem free and appear high VF or better. The trade would be $200 plus in a straight holder, and the seated in the $350-$400 range. Those are among the type of coins I collect, but I would never buy either if raw.
     
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  21. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    Just curious to the answer on one of my questions.

    How long does it typically take for PCGS or NGC to turn around a submission and get it back to you?

    How long are the coins out of pocket?

    Thanks in advance.

    Zoid
     
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