Ceaning or Die polish

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

torontokuba said: ↑

Give yourselves a rest. It's like playing a broken record. Call your lines "Die Finishing Lines" (as per the coinweek article) to avoid this repetitive argument. Search "Die Finishing Lines" and "Die Polish Lines" on CT and realize that at this point, you may be arguing with early-onset dementia
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Thanks, I will read about that discussion later and then continue HERE & THERE to straighten out this mess. I can already see that some may be splitting hairs as Die Finishing in the die shop BEFORE the dies are ever used is one thing, while Die Polishing to recondition a previously USED die is another.

OMG! Now we need to figure out WHEN the Dies were polished...LOL. And don't forget about HUB polishing...I mean HUB FINISHING vs HUB POLISHING ...LOL!

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Insider · Jan 4, 2016

ldhair said: ↑

Polishing is not the only way that dies gain lines. There are several ways. Are you folks calling them all die polish lines? Dies are polished while off the press but can be cleaned in several ways while still on the press
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How true...

physics-fan3.14 · Jan 4, 2016

I... I don't know what happened here.

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

Coinchemistry 2012 said: ↑

Interestingly, this topic has also spread to the NGC Forums. Of the members who disagree with the argument concerning die polish lines never crossing and/or never appearing on devices include:
1. One former NGC grader, a cameo CAC reviewer, and numismatist at one of the largest coin auction houses in the world;
2. An original old ANA grader and noted numismatic author;
3. An ICG grader (and former old ANACS grader?), recipient of a number of ANA awards, and noted Coin World contributer;
4. A well noted research numismatist who has published on a variety of topics including, but not limited to, topics related to die production and striking at the U.S. Mint.
5. A number of advanced collectors/dealers.

I don't think all of them are wrong. I don't see any dissent at all.
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6. Little o'me too?

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

GDJMSP said: ↑

So you refuse to answer my questions ?

I have good (?) , logical (?), and documented (?) reasons for my thinking AND THEY ARE...?. Reason that prove that those are not all die polish lines on those coins.

What I want to know is why you think they are die polish lines. Still waiting to hear from you FIRST.
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OMG! Talk about "Black Pots and Kettles" From what I have read in this thread so far ONLY ONE PERSON has refused to answer any questions here?

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

ldhair said: ↑

I never thought of "the use of emery sticks and cotton swabs for repair and retouching" as die polishing but I guess that's what it is called.
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Actually the incuse scratch-like marks they put into the die (as it is treated w/whatever) is often called polishing/retouching/refinishing the die and the raised marks (not from tooling or damage) THAT IS TRANSFERED to the struck coin from dies w/these scratches are also referred to as Die Polish.

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

geekpryde said: ↑

Yes, the OP's coins was the only thing I was commenting on. I wasn't even going to attempt to wade into the second half of this thread. It gets too exhausting
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Very interesting. If I were someone interested in coins/how they are made and knew enough to post an opinion; I would gladly get exhausted in my quest to learn.

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

GDJMSP said: ↑

And I gladly would if I was. But as Roger points out, I am not. Cleaning a die and or retouching a die is not the same thing as polishing a die.Absolutely true. Cleaning a die or retouching can create scratches on the die, and scratches on the die result in raised lines on the coins they strike.True again. And that is how raised lines Actually some of the reasons can appear on the devices of a coin. Tool marks can also create raised lines on a die, but tool marks are not the result of polishing the die either.Absolutely true.

And that is the entire point. There are several (Note several) completely different processes that can create lines on a die, which in turn create raised lines on a coin.In total agreement, now pay close attention... But they are all different processes and not die polishing EXCEPT one of the several completely different processes CAN BE actual die polishing! Dies are polished by machine, not by hand. True And the flat disk that does the polishing is incapable of even touching the devices on a coin True enough, so there can never be die polish lines on the devices of a coin.While die polishing lines FROM THE DISC cannot reach into the devices below the die face, evidence of Die Polish lines on a coin's relief are fairly common! Check out the relief on a proof Franklin or Washington quarter. It's physically impossible. And the polishing method is also why die polish lines cannot criss cross.Actually, die polish lines CAN CROSS due to machine polishing with a circular disc (even at the Mint)! It depends on the skill, time, attention, of whomever is doing the work. The abrasive used can also contribute to crossed lines. Here is what I offer as evidence: I was once a lapidary. When polishing semi-precious stones such as Topaz, we use finer and finer compounds on the disc (with water a drip). The flat top face of the stone is finished first. All kinds of scratches are seen on the surface at first. Each time you rotate the stone the polish lines will cross until continued polishing removes the first batch and leaves more. The final goal is to have a smooth, mirror-like surface, WITH NO Evidence of any mechanical abrasion left!

When FINISHING a fresh die at the MINT - a similar perfection (to a point) is sought and in many cases achieved to have a perfect die. Any incuse lines LEFT on a new FINISHED die will leave raised lines FROM DIE POLISHING on a coin. So if we make a few twists, DOUG is correct. In a perfect case, Fresh finished dies should not leave ANY raised lines as evidence of being polished.

Yes, there can easily be raised lines on a coin that do criss cross.True of course...look at all the evidence posted as pictures. My point is that if there are, then those that do criss cross were not created by the die being polished,Not entirely true as a freshly finished die can have crossed die polish if THEY WERE LEFT ON THE DIE and not polished out in the first place., but instead created by other processes done to the die in addition to the die being polished. Die polish lines in and of themselves cannot criss cross..until THEY DO.

And as you point out, just as I have done many. many times, you can and often do find die polish lines, die scratches, tool marks, hairlines on the coin, scratches on the coin, - and all on the same coin. So what...

The mistake (?) being made by... is one of terminology for most people call all of these lines die polish lines - when they are not all die polish lines at all. But instead lines with several different causes including the dies being polished/RESURFACED. It is also extremely common for the TPGs to do pretty much the same thing and cleanly grade coins that for obvious reasons have lines on them that were not caused by die polishing...according to who.... And they get away with doing this because they know the majority of people will accept it because that is The way knowledgeable folks at the Mint & TPGS describe those raised parallel/circular/and crossed die polishing lines. what the people want. They want their coins cleanly graded And...any coin without PMD and some with actual light hairlines are graded that way. Take a look at the ANA GRADING STANDARD for "hairlines" on coins! . And they also know that most people( I know at least one for sure) do not know the truth about the many different things that cause the lines on coins. Those two things combined allow them to get away with doing what they do. As in protecting the public in most cases from counterfeiting and over grading! Educating the public about the characteristics on coins and funding many ANA endeavors. Thank God for them. [/QUOTE]
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Insider · Jan 4, 2016

robec said: ↑

Here are some die polish lines on the device. Many Lincoln proof's from the 1936-42 are covered with these
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That's cheating! you are showing evidence of MACHINE made die polish in the die recesses! Some say this is impossible! Can't happen. Bet you doctored the photos! You know less than a YN

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

brg5658 said: ↑

Roger has directly replied on the NGC forums and stated that he has no problem with the term "die polishing" being used (and it continues to be used by numismatists) as a synonym for all forms of die repair at the mint resulting in raised lines on a coins surface (incuse lines on a die). And for the record, he states that the mint strictly only used the term polishing "to refer only to deliberate production of mirror-like surfaces".

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Thanks for the lesson! Learned something new here. That's one for today and it's only past noon.

Sallent · Jan 4, 2016

This thread suffers from too much modern die polish.

Anyone up for 1,900 year old die polish? Check the obverse on this puppy

Steve66 · Jan 4, 2016

physics-fan3.14 said: ↑

I... I don't know what happened here.
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Me... Me either.

Lehigh96 · Jan 4, 2016

Insider, I am begging you, please switch to decaf!

robec · Jan 4, 2016

Insider said: ↑

That's cheating! you are showing evidence of MACHINE made die polish in the die recesses! Some say this is impossible! Can't happen. Bet you doctored the photos! You know less than a YN
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Thanks for your comments.

As for your two personal comments, starting with doctoring the photo. I have nothing to gain by doctoring the photo. And that is if I had the know how to accomplish it and make it look natural........or even unnatural.

As for knowing less than a YN, you are very likely correct.

Insider · Jan 4, 2016

robec said: ↑

Thanks for your comments.

As for your two personal comments, starting with doctoring the photo. I have nothing to gain by doctoring the photo. And that is if I had the know how to accomplish it and make it look natural........or even unnatural.

As for knowing less than a YN, you are very likely correct.
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I'm making a joke. Your post was Exceptionally good evidence to support your opinion! It's a shame it goes unanswered...

robec · Jan 4, 2016

Insider said: ↑

I'm making a joke. Your post was Exceptionally good evidence to support your opinion! It's a shame it goes unanswered...
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It appears my comprehension is lacking as well.

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Ceaning or Die polish

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Ceaning or Die polish

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physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

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