Capped Bust Half with Letters in Shield

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by longshot, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    So I have this half with a lot of clashing on the reverse. Apparently multiple clashes with different rotations. But where did the letters in the shield, close to the reverse center, come from and how did it happen?
    1812 CBH 107-vert.jpg

    20200131_214405.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
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  3. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    The only letters they could be would be LIBERTY from her cap. I'm not sure if they line up or not. An overlay from @justafarmer would do the trick, I'm sure.
     
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  4. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    I dont believe they line up. Last night I concluded they are too close to the center. I'll check again. Thx!
     
  5. Islander80-83

    Islander80-83 Well-Known Member

    The letters are close to where they should be. My eyes were more focused on this.

    20200131_214405.jpg
     
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  6. Islander80-83

    Islander80-83 Well-Known Member

    Difficult to see but this may help.

    Screen Shot 2020-02-06 at 5.14.49 PM.png
     
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  7. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Still puzzled. The top of the R in the shield appears to be in about 3 mm too far to match the obverse. Also there is lettering under the wing, can't get it to show up well in a pic though.
    20200206_215113.jpg
     
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  8. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    The clash you show on the reverse is the ribbon in her hair, at the back of her head. If we constrain the overlay to be simply a straight-on clash, as Islander shows, then I agree, BE should not appear where we see it.

    However, let's assume that one or both of the dies is loose. Clearly, there was a situation with multiple off-center clashes (and clearly, there was a significant shift even between clash strikes). If you align the clash (ribbon) to what you see on the reverse, then I'm pretty sure the BE aligns with the shield. This is an off-centered multiple clash.

    This is a strange situation if you look at it from a modern perspective... but think about the technology used at the time. Is this so implausible?
     
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  9. Long Beard

    Long Beard Well-Known Member

    A theory I've had for a time as I've seen others with similar anomalies, is that in the early years of the mint precious metals were often in low supply comparative to demand in commerce. To alleviate this coinage was often repurposed from previous years and/or other countries. Perhaps ones like that posted were simply placed in the press and struck over?
     
  10. okbustchaser

    okbustchaser I may be old but I still appreciate a pretty bust Supporter

    I always liked this 1814 O-102a with the tripled LIBERTY on the reverse.

    upload_2020-2-7_7-31-4.png
     
  11. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Right on, I see it now. The seller had described it as multiple rotations, I was stuck in that rut:banghead:. But it's just off center striking(s)...clashes, I mean. Thanks, guys. @physics-fan3.14 especially.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  12. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Yes misaligned die clashes. They tend to be very popular.

    No. You need to understand why the mint was often low on precious metals and why the scenario you propose would not occur.

    Up until 1837 the Mint did not have a bullion fund, which meant they could not go out into the market and buy silver or gold to make coins to supply the needs of commerce. They had to depend on citizen, businesses or banks to come in and deposit gold and silver to be melted down and struck into coins FOR THEM. If no one was bringing in any precious metal, no coins were being made. As much as possible the mint also made the coins that the depositor wanted. So if commerce had a crying need for dimes and the depositor wanted half dollars, the mint made half dollars. (In many cases if the depositor wanted smaller coins the mint officials would actually try and talk them into half dollars because it meant less work, a faster turnaround time, and less wear and tear on the equipment) The law, as I read it, also required the mint to process the deposits in the order in which they were received. So if you deposit came in behind a big deposit from a bank you might have to wait a few weeks to get your coins.

    So what would happen if a deposit came in that had some US coins in it that were still of legal weight? They wouldn't go to the time and effort of restriking them, they would just hand them back with the rest of the coins made from the deposit. After all the depositors weren't making the deposit to get this years coins, they just wanted COINS. So they wouldn't care if it was an older date.

    After 1837 when they had their bullion fund they would keep coins on hand and if the depositor wished they could be paid in coin immediately for their deposit (less a small charge) or they could wait. If they took the immediate payment the deposbe coined and the coins returned to the bullion fund
     
  13. Joe Campbell

    Joe Campbell Well-Known Member

    Really cool coin and informative thread. Thanks fellas.
     
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  14. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    I checked my library and to my surprise it turns out I haven't done any mapping of Bust Halves.
     
  15. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    If you look closely, the clash marks for the hair, above the right [facing] wing are doubled, with some spacing between th4e images..
    Therefore, the only logical answer is that the die was loose, otherwise the double clash would be directly on the initial image.

    Sometimes, the simplest answer is the correct one



     
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