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Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by CHARLES GINETTO, Jan 26, 2021.

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    CHARLES GINETTO Active Member

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  3. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    A person awaking from a coma 20 years from now will think they are on a different planet and they would be correct. What exists today will become ancient history and only those interested in the subject will explore the dusty tomes for knowledge, assuming they are available to be read. This brings me to the issue of reading. It seems we are now graduating students with an indoctrination participation diploma.
  4. SteveInTampa

    SteveInTampa Always Learning

    Now there’s three threads here on the same subject...pick your poison.
  5. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    I'll take the Hemlock for 500, Alex.
    PlanoSteve and eddiespin like this.
  6. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    If you go back to the 1940s through the 1970s, Andrew Jackson was an icon. His reputation was build considerably by the book The Age of Jackson by Arthur Schlesinger Jr. which won the Pulitzer Prize. Schlesinger was a member of the Kennedy administration.

    As a collector of Hard Times tokens and the Classic Head Coinage, I have read several books and written a few articles about Jackson and his era for Penny Wise, the Early American Coppers Club magazine and other publications.

    Jackson's career was checked to say the least. On the one hand he gave common people a voice in government and was the first man, who was not a member of the upper class, to be elected president. He built the Democratic Party. His actions to hold the Union together when John C. Calhoun was advocating the nullification of laws that some state states didn't like was actually a first shot in the battle to keep the country together.

    On the other hand his hard money and anti-bank policies made the Panic of 1837 worse. His worst sin of all was the way he treated the Cherokee Indians in North Georgia and forced them to move on "the trail of tears" was simply awful. I have read that some Indians refuse to handle $20 bill for that reason, and I don't blame them.

    I oppose much of what is happening with the way history is being re-written, but that we do have a need to look at the truth. I hope that the truth can survive.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  7. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    I think it's a fool's errand to judge history by today's standards...or to judge anyone without first walking a mile in their shoes. The best we can do is learn, not erase.
    paddyman98, BJBII, buckeye73 and 11 others like this.
  8. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    You can't pull people out of their time and expect them to conform to your standards. What you can do is learn from the missteps they made and apply that knowledge to the present.

    For example, Jackson's policy with the central bank did not work. Every civilized country in the world has a central monetary authority that regulates their currency. You can certainly argue about the specific policies, but the need to do that has been proven necessary.

    Unfortunately we still have those who want to go back to a "wild west" banking system where banks can issue their own money with no regulations. I have learned that you can't change them by pointing out historical examples. So all you can do is oppose them.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  9. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    There's a LOT of wisdom in that post.
    buckeye73, Santinidollar and yakpoo like this.
  10. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    The Gold Standard was largely a self-regulating system. As an economy contracts, gold flows in, money expands, the economy returns to expansion and gold flows out. Problems have occurred (e.g. The Great Depression), when central banks impede the natural, self-regulating flow of money. Nearly every economic crisis since 1913 has been the result of a failure of government (intentional or not).
  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    That was what people thought in the late 19th century. I guess I have to take the 5th Amendment here. Things will get too political.
    -jeffB and yakpoo like this.
  12. Legomaster1

    Legomaster1 Cointalk Patron

    As soon as they bring out that politically correct abomination, I'm going cashless for good. Only plastic and Paypal then.
    john65999 and Nyatii like this.
  13. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    It doesn't need to get political (or disrespectful)'s just a discussion of economics. Even John Maynard Keynes would be appalled at the level of today's deficit spending. We've crested 100% of GDP and are accelerating into uncharted territory. to the U.S. Bureau,% and 105.4%, respectively.

    We've been having this discussion since William Jennings Bryan's infamous "Cross of Gold" speech at the Democrat National Convention in Chicago on July 9, 1896.

    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  14. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    MV = PQ

    Velocity of money has been falling so increasing the money supply is NOT inflationary as in the past.
    -jeffB, johnmilton and yakpoo like this.
  15. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Remember...whenever we have an economic DISLOCATION or exogenous shock....the economy will fight it off one way or the other (like the human body when it detects a disease).

    There are 2 ways to adjust: EXTERNAL (macro) adjustments or INTERNAL (micro) adjustments.

    External adjustments include a falling currency or inflation or increasing the money supply....all designed to support falling nominal GDP.

    Internal adjustments include falling wages and prices...falling nominal GDP....rising real rates of interest.

    The debate the last 10-12 years has been on the difficulty of internal adjustments because wages/prices are sticky to the downside and therefore they take LONGER to work and this results in lost nominal GDP output. This is what happened in Europe with the debtor countries.

    External adjustments are EASIER because the costs are born by all of the country (inflation affects everybody) and thus spread out. In deflationary times, the last thing you want is falling nominal GDP as it results in a rising real debt burden. In inflationary times, internal adjustments made more sense.

    Gold standards, fixed exchange rates, currency unions like the Euro...they all necessistate INTERNAL adjustments and this can lead to longer economic downsides.

    Also note that internal adjustments impact the lower-classes MORE and the wealthy/creditor class LESS. Reversed with external adjustments. William Jennings Bryan wanted to get rid of the Gold Standard to help farmers and debtors who couldn't take the pain (the INTERNAL adjustment) of falling wages and prices.

    Class Dismissed ! :D
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  16. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    Yakpoo's Value Equation..."Value = Collector Base / Availability"

    When applied to money in general, most people "collect" money (when given the chance), so changes in Value are mostly driven by changes in Availability.

    One would think that an increase in Money Supply would devalue the Dollar, pushing up inflation. It might if the additional money was made "Available" to the general economy. Instead, the Fed uses debt to buy debt...driving down interest rates, keeping the Dollar in alignment with other world currencies.

    A lowering of rates around the world is supposed to "encourage" capital investment in higher risk/higher return investments...thus stimulating growth. This stimulates Supply, but not necessarily Demand. The "Parachute Money" (aka. Stimulus Checks) are intended to buoy Demand. This may be a more efficacious way to manage an economy, but I don't see it.

    I often wonder what happens to the value of the U.S. Dollar when Mainland China successfully invades/subdues Taiwan. It won't be good.
  17. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

    It's about time you dismissed the class. I am stuck on exogenous. o_O:eek:;)
    Cliff Reuter and GoldFinger1969 like this.
  18. Robert Ransom

    Robert Ransom Well-Known Member

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  19. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    I don't buy into the class winners/losers argument. True, when people become capital managers, changes in expenses have little affect on their lifestyles. Why? ...because they make up the difference by selling investments.

    Ultimately it's the guy working paycheck-to-paycheck who is affected most directly when expenses are raised on Capital Managers (fewer employment opportunities, stagnant pay, rising prices, etc.).

    Bill Gates has a net worth somewhere around $130 Billion. The argument goes..."If we tax Mr. Gates wealth by 90% ($117 Billion), he will still have $13 Billion left...plenty of money for anyone to live a very enjoyable life!".

    True! ...but where does that $117 Billion come from? That's the part no one talks about. He has to sell investments to raise the cash. Who will that affect the most? ...not Bill Gates.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The lower velocity of money rate (the number of times a dollar is spent in a year to put it simply.) is the reason why we have not been drowned with inflation as it was in the 1970s. The slower money movement has been around since since the last big recession in 2009.

    Keynes thought the lowering interest rates was a less efficient way to stimulate the economy because it had to work though the capital / investment system to get it to stimulate the economy. He thought that increasing government spending or lowering taxes was quicker and more certain. His model was based on the 1930s Depression when businesses could not see the benefits of investing in more capital goods because demand was extremely depressed.

    Today I would say that the cheap money is mostly being thrown into the stock markets which have inflated prices. If you want to look for inflation, that's were it is right now.

    The trouble is if you are a retiree, like me, that's about the only game in town. Savings pay you nothing. As for gold, I'm sitting on a lot of that already, although it's not the right kind. It's mostly numismatic gold.
  21. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    That reminds me of the line from lyrics from the song "Mack the Knife" in "Three Penny Opera." "The rich always win back what they pay."

    I'm not criticizing the rich. Smart people know how to land on their feet. It's the average Joe that gets the shaft.
    Cliff Reuter and GoldFinger1969 like this.
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