Can you spot the fake?

I didn’t say buying raw coins from auctions was dangerous or about luck.

But getting them to refund your money if you buy a fake from them certainly is all about luck.

Good luck sending them an email saying:
“I shared this on the CT forums and people there say it’s fake. I want my money back.”

I guarantee they would not just be like:

“Oh ok no problem here is your money back!”

No. They’d want evidence & proof and their experts might disagree with other experts and in the end all that matters is if the experts on their end say it’s real or not.

Basically it comes down to whether the auction house wants to refund you or not. But you’re certainly not entitled to it. It’s at their discretion alone.

That is luck.

I’ve seen it happen with non-numismatic stuff.

Here is a perfect example:


A customer takes it to an expert. The expert says it’s “not genuine”. The auction house says “we think it is” and guess what? They don’t give you your money back.

I think a lot of people seem to have this false belief that just because an auction house has guarantees that it means it’s safe to buy from.

It doesn’t.They get to decide how to interpret those guarantees.

That’s why I like slabs. Because it’s not just taking the auction house’s word. It’s taking the word of independent outside experts. If TPGs and the auction house say something is genuine it’s much safer because the TPGs don’t have a conflict of interest like an auction house does.

 

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For someone so fresh to the hobby, you come across as pretty sure of yourself.

Yet, you seem to ask a fair amount of elementary questions to the board that could be answered with a minimal amount of effort on your part by doing the research yourself.

You also apparently have fabricated some interesting perspectives. Perhaps once you've gained a little more time in the hobby your perspectives will evolve.

So go on and continue to antagonize the members here...Members that have years and even decades of experience in the hobby. I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends.

Good luck...

 

You are very right!

If someone on here says something that contradicts my own experience I do indeed tell them so.

I may be relatively new but I don’t assume that means anything someone tells me is true.

Nope. Instead I question it and mention what I’ve experienced or what I’ve read.


For example: If I see people say that Auction Houses will gladly refund something if it turns out not to be genuine and I’ve seen that not to be true with my own two eyes I will indeed tell them that I’ve seen otherwise.

Quite frankly if someone tells me something and expects me to take what they say as fact yet has a problem with me asking follow up questions or mentioning things I’ve read/seen that contradict what they said then they’re probably not very much more knowledgable than myself and it’s probably best to talk to someone who knows their stuff.

There is an old adage that people used to say: “Just because someone on the internet says something doesn’t make it true.”

 

I'll keep that in mind skipping over your posts.

 

There is a convenient ignore button which I have exercised with great discrimination

 

I think I'm feeding something or someone. But again, for the benefit of anyone reading this thread.

I stand by what I said. Getting a refund is not about luck. At least from a reputable company. It is about presenting reasoned evidence.

I attach here email correspondence that I have requested a refund for a coin from NAC. This is on authenticity grounds, i.e. the coin is fake.

NAC agreed to the refund. Please note that I provided evidence why I believed the coin to be fake, and links to the identical coin for sale elsewhere at the time.

 

That’s fine. You have that right.

 

Well I am glad it worked out for you.

But just remember not all auction houses are the same. Just because you had good luck in getting a refund doesn’t mean everyone else will too.

As I’ve already proven by showing the example above of the person who got a fake signature and was not refunded.

You had good luck and they had bad luck.

 

Heritage, in the post, says they'll buy the signature back for 2500. Which is more than the 1500 they paid, in 2014. Or that they'll auction it for free. Even though they think it's genuine.

What's the problem with the response there?

 

Well normally there wouldn’t be a problem and I would say “Well they’re more than refunding what he paid so that only proves what people are saying about auction houses guaranteeing authenticity”..

Until you read his follow up post and realize the $1,500 they mention is what it sold for 4 years prior to his purchase and that he actually paid over $7K for it.



In this case they are only refunding 1/3 of what he paid for it.

If I paid say $1,000 for a raw coin and it turned out to be fake I would want my $1,000 to be refunded.

I wouldn’t want them to say:

“Five years ago that same coin sold for $300 so we’ll offer you $400 if you send it back to us.”

No I would want my $1,000 back since I paid $1,000 for it assuming it was authentic as advertised when I bought it.

 

As collectors, we take on some risk. This is inherently part of the hobby.

If you buy a coin, and later you think it's fake, or tooled - the procedure is to get the opinion of a world renowned expert. Some of these experts inhabit Coin Talk and they are well known to the auction houses.

To mitigate risk, don't buy from dealers or auction houses who are known to be resistant to providing refunds under circumstances where a reasonable person would expect a refund.

If NGC slabbed coins makes you feel comfortable, then buy NGC slabs. It's not my thing, but who are we to tell you how to run your collection?

 

Thanks I appreciate it .

I don’t care if other people prefer raw coins. That’s their own choice and their own collection and they’re spending their own money.

Frankly I just get annoyed when people make me feel like I’m stupid for buying slabbed coins. Or that it’s “wrong”.

I just feel more comfortable knowing it’s been examined by experts at NGC as well as the auction house rather than just the auction house which is the one trying to sell it in the first place.

Since it’s my collection I believe my own comfort in buying the coins is relevant to the matter.

I also like that I can let my 4 & 6 year old nephews hold them and look at them since they showed an interest in collecting when they started collecting state quarters.

They always have sticky or messy stuff on their fingers from Cheetohs powder to sticky apple juice and I like that I don’t have to worry about them getting it on my coins. Just the holder.

Kind of like the slab is armor.

 

The problem is you supply false arguments in your reasoning for buying slabbed coins. As has already been stated ad nauseam, the reputable auctions houses - whose names can be found with some research here - will refund your money if the coin is proven to be fake. So, there's no more risk there.

Saying that you don't want your nephews to get their cheesy hands on it is a valid reason, though personally I solved that problem by taping the coin holder to an information page, then placing that in a plastic sleeve. My costs are maybe 50 cents per coin vs paying 50%-200% more at an auction like Heritage.

As has also been stated, please go ahead and stick to slabbed coins at overpriced auctions. It's your money and your collection. This makes things cheaper for the rest of us.

 

Everybody has their own reasons for not liking a certain part of a hobby. I'm not one to judge, but it's a little odd sometimes for someone to entirely discount an entire segment for some rather circumstantial reason. Blake once mentioned that he likes slabs because silver and gold coins are so small that they are hard to drop.
I know some guys with Bigfoot hands that have no problems with small objects.

At the end of the day, collectors with the deepest pockets can really make their own rules. As a bottom feeder, I stick with raw, cheap, and common coins. I don't know of many collectors who would completely disregard a common high grade FTR for any arbitrary reason. They might not specialize in late empire, or not specialize in bronze, but I have yet to hear someone disregard a massive segment of a hobby because the coins are too small, or the bronze is too brown.

 

The problem is that the OP doesn't seem to even acknowledge the flaws or problems in the arguments when others point them out.

For example the OP wrote "But getting them to refund your money if you buy a fake from them certainly is all about luck."

I replied that's not true. I even provided an example of how I wrote to NAC to request a refund. The OP reiterates it's a matter of luck, and that not all auction houses are the same.

What more can one say?

 

The problem with that is you’re ignoring the evidence I’ve shared showing that’s not always the case.

I’ve shared evidence showing cases where people bought fakes and were NOT refunded.

By definition if some people do get refunded for fakes and others do not that is clearly a case of it being down to luck based on which auction house is used and who is responding to the complaint.

 

Being easy to drop is just one example. Now am I going to drop a Morgan Dollar?

Probably not.

But a silver Roman denarius? Those are pretty tiny. I could totally see myself dropping one or someone else dropping one if I shared it with them.

I also like that the slabs protect my coins from whatever sticky stuff my nephews seem to always have on their hands.

& I like that a slabbed coin has been examined by the auction house AND NGC experts.

It’s more complicated than just one single reason.

I also collect US coins which I collected before ancients and with US coins getting them slabbed is common. It’s just something I like and I feel I should be able to do what I like with my collection without being shamed for it or made to feel like an idiot.

When people do that it only causes me to get defensive because they have no right to tell me what to do with my collection just like I would never tell someone what to do with their collection.

 

Show some evidence where an auction house refused a refund for a coin deemed not authentic.

This is a coin forum discussing ancient coins, not an autograph forum.

You have presented no evidence.

Zip, Zero, Nada.

It's not about your personal decision to prefer slabbed coins. It's that you make asinine assertions that you can't back up, and you challenge the experience of long-time collectors; when you've merely gotten your feet wet in the game.

 

As I already mentioned, there are numerous solutions to keep coins safe from dropping and sticky stuff.

Others with more experience correct me if this isn't true, but my understanding is auction houses won't authenticate an NGC slabbed coin further than verifying the NGC cert. How can they? The coin is behind a slab, so checking edges or using an XRF scanner is impossible. That's why I mentioned that NGC is a potential security hole, because once you fool them then there's automatic trust. This isn't the case for unslabbed - each time it comes up at auction it's reevaluated.

By all means continue sticking to slabbed coins. Just stop providing false reasons for doing so, then arguing with other highly experienced members here (of which I'm not a member), who point out your fallacies.

Also, I wouldn't use Heritage as a glowing example of a highly reputable auction house.

 

Here is a fairly precise definition of the issue under discussion:

1. Ancient coin(s)...
2. Purchased from ancient coin dealers or auction houses...
3. Who have a written guarantee of authenticity...
4. And a purchaser who is returning a coin that has been adjudicated as a forgery by a reasonably recognized entity in validating authenticity.

Feel free to "share" actual, verifiable instances of any violation of such circumstances.