Can you spot the fake?

They may not “guarantee” authenticity but their judgement is still highly reputable.

It’s not like we read stories every day about NGC graded coins turning out to be fakes.

My guess is that 97% or more of the ancient coins slabbed by NGC are indeed authentic. Even if they won’t “guarantee” it.

 

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Those are interesting questions, regarding the NGC COA idea.
Perhaps some of those questions, could be resolved, by using the NGC number on the certificate, to lookup photos of the coin, on the NGC web site. The potential buyer can compare the seller photos, with the photos on the NGC web site, to see if the coin has been tooled, or cleaned, or damaged.
However, it depends on the quality of the NGC web site photos, and the quality of the seller photos.
For the slabbed coins that I have purchased (and subsequently removed from their slabs), some of the NGC web site photos were pretty good quality, with pretty good resolution, lighting, etc. Other NGC web site photos were not as good quality.
Here are 2 examples, of the NGC web site photos, at their full resolution, for 2 of my coins. One is an Aegina turtle stater. The other is a Richard The Lionheart silver penny.
The turtle coin NGC web site photos, are higher quality, than the Richard The Lionheart NGC web site photos, mostly because of the lighting, in my opinion, and because the Richard coin has a darker tone.
For the turtle coin, could I tell, if the seller (or someone else) had tooled the coin, or cleaned the coin, or damaged the coin, after the COA had been created, by comparing the seller photos, with the NGC web site photos? Perhaps, especially if the seller photos were good quality.
For the Richard The Lionheart coin, could I tell, if the seller (or someone else) had tooled the coin, or cleaned the coin, or damaged the coin, after the COA had been created, by comparing the seller photos, with the NGC web site photos? Perhaps, but it may be more difficult. Perhaps if I increased the brightness of the Richard coin photos, using an image editor, it would make it easier.

 

I have yet to own a slabbed coin, but the following give me frustration with them.

1. If NGC doesn't provide a COA, then why do they charge more for more expensive coins, even going up to a percentage of the value? I mean, given two coins - say a good fine Claudius denarius and a fleur-de-coin Claudius denarius (but both the same obverse and reverse), why does it cost that much more to grade the fleur-de-coin?
2. The slabs themselves are annoying, completely preventing me from displaying the coins the way I want. If I do buy one day, I'm opening it.
3. As I mentioned before, if someone can trick NGC into slabbing a fake coin, that coin can be sold at pretty much any auction house without issues for all time.
4. The gradings just seem ridiculous. I've seen a number of double 5/5 coins that would just be a VF in my book. For me, I just want to see the details of the coin to just its condition - but of course the slab makes that difficult.

It would be great if there was a service that didn't slab coins, only gave a judgment on whether they're genuine (no grading), and provided a COA. That would be worth something, and they could then justify charging a percentage of the coin value.

 

https://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html

 

Sure.. I understand the piece of mind that a slab might give a new collector.

The same piece of mind can be had with loose coins from reputable dealers/auctions houses that actually do give guarantees of authenticity.

I believe one is limiting their available choices by only buying slabbed coins. <---- Their personal decision to do so of course.

The chances of one buying a fake loose coin from a CNG auction (only for example) are roughly the same as NGC having one slip through detection and getting slabbed.

The expert numismatists at many of the top auction houses are peers with those at NGC. A lot and I mean A LOT of ancient coins have passed through their hands. It is their chosen career.

 

Well you know that a 5/5 is only part of the grade right?

Usually there is a normal grade like XF and then the strike & surface are graded out of 5.

So a VF 5/5 strike 3/5 surface is still a VF coin. Basically what NGC is saying with the 5/5 is:

“The strike of this coin is in the top 20% of VF coins we’ve graded and the surface is in the top 60% of VF coins we’ve graded.”

If you compare a VF Strike 5/5 Surface 5/5 it’s still below the grade of an XF 2/5 Strike 2/5 Surface.

 

I think a lot of people just feel more comfortable with an NGC guarantee than an auction house guarantee.

I have bought several ancient Roman coins from Heritage Auctions and all of them are slabbed. I don’t know if HA guarantees their loose coins or not but they are a huge auction house.

But I haven’t purchased loose from them because I don’t know how their guarantees work if they even have one.

 

The only problem with Sear, in my opinion, is that his web site doesn't seem to have a lookup service, where you could use a number on the certificate, to lookup photos of the coin, on the web site. That is the big advantage of NGC, for their slabs, in my opinion. That's why I wish NGC had COAs, with the same web site photos lookup service, as for their slabs. If I were buying a coin, from someone who had a paper COA from Sear, then I would worry a little bit, that the paper certificate, could be faked. But photos on a web site, are much more difficult to fake. On the other hand, if I sent a coin to Sear myself, then I would be somewhat happy, with a paper COA from Sear, because I had received the paper COA directly from Sear. It's just that the paper COA from Sear, would not be so useful to me, if I ever wanted to sell the coin.

 

Here is an aureus of Augustus that I think is a much more competent fake.

If I compared it to a real one I would be able to tell.

Yes it lacks details but if I saw it on display at a coin shop being sold as a
Ch Fine aureus of Augustus I would probably believe the seller.

I would have to have something to compare it too.

 

Yeah, there's two numbers, and often they don't make sense. There's so many things that go into whether a coin is desirable:
- Centering
- Raised profile
- Patina
- Edge condition
- Quality of engraver
- Crystallized/flan cracks/etc
- How worn it is

Complicating the matter is different people care about different things. So, unless one can physically see the coin, the next best thing is as high resolution a photo as possible.

 

Those coming from modern coins do, but just from the replies here, there are a great many ancient coin collectors who don't.

 

Yeah but both of those numbers are within the grade.

So a coin can be an F coin but still get 5/5 on both strike & surface if it’s in the top 20% of strike & surface of F coins of that type that they’ve graded.

Usually all of that stuff is factored in and it’s how they determine the numbers.

For example if a coin has flan cracks & wear it will get a lower “surface” grade.

If it’s not well centered it will lose points on the “strike” grade.

 

How exactly have you come to this conclusion? Way more loose coins pass through hands than slabbed.

Perhaps a more correct statement would be: "I feel more comfortable with an NGC guarantee than an auction house guarantee"... and I would remind you that NGC doesn't have a guarantee!

 

That was my bad I meant to say I think people are more comfortable with NGC slabbing a coin is genuine than they are with an auction house saying a coin is genuine.

NGC is an outside party who makes money either way.

Auction houses have a conflict of interest. They want the coins to be genuine so they might say they are genuine without looking as closely.

The Auction houses also don’t have a guarantee either so they can sell a coin by saying it’s real, make money, then if it turns out the coin was fake they’ll just say “Oh well. We never guaranteed anything.”

NGC might not guarantee but they don’t make more money if a coin is real than if it’s fake like an auction house so there isn’t that same conflict of interest.

 

That's a good point. Maybe NGC is worried, that a COA would cause NGC, to incur more legal liability, than a slab would.
However, perhaps NGC could offer a certificate of authenticity (COA), without offering a guarantee. So if someone buys a $50,000 coin, with an NGC COA, and if the coin turns out to be fake, then NGC wouldn't owe the person $50,000.
That's what Sear seems to do.
The examples of Sear COAs, that I have found by Googling, all say the following at the bottom of the certificate : "... no guarantee is made regarding the accuracy of any of the opinions or data conveyed above and no liability of any kind is assumed ...".
However, I'm guessing, that Sear has way fewer customers, than NGC does. So that may be a factor. Perhaps, when you are a small business, there aren't as many possibilities for disastrous legal disputes, as when you are a large business.
I don't know, if anyone could win such a legal dispute against NGC, if such a statement were printed, in large letters, at the bottom of an NGC COA.

 

Imho buying slabs is an excuse for some to not do the research. While some raw coins are deceptive fakes, the chances of getting a fake are greatly reduced by studying and researching the coins. Again, in my opinion only, but many of those who come to ancients after collecting moderns seem to rely on others to do the work for them.

In addition, there are some who expect the world of ancient coins to be subject to the same expectations of modern coins. Why does anyone need a coin to be graded? This is often an excuse for not doing the work oneself.

@Gam3rBlake , I sincerely hope that you maintain your interest in ancient coins. It is a fascinating hobby that differs greatly from the world of moderns.

There are many helpful people here so do not be afraid to ask. Also, if I can in any way be helpful please do let me know. Welcome to this very interesting area of collecting. If you stuck to it for the next 70 years, I daresay you might at the end of that time realize that you knew less than when you started.

 

I wouldn’t exactly say it’s an “excuse”.

In my mind I view it kind of like training wheels on a bicycle. It’s a way for a beginning collector like me to get my hands on genuine coins and learn the look of them so I can build up confidence in identifying them and can one day learn to do it myself.

If I was buying $40-$50 coins I’d probably just do my best and not worry about the slab..

But some of the coins I’ve purchased (like my Quadrigatus) are over $1,000 and with that kind of money being spent I feel more comfortable making the purchase knowing NGC experts have looked it over and are confident it’s genuine, even if they can’t “guarantee” it.

Ironically despite my classical history degree my coin knowledge is mostly regarding US coins not ancients. I can spot a fake Morgan Dollar quickly but spotting a fake denarius is much more difficult since there was much more variation in coins back then. None of them were exactly the same size, weight and diameter. Each one is unique. That makes identifying fakes more difficult.

 

Here is Heritage's Terms & Conditions...

I would recommend reading the T&Cs for any auction house that one might ever deal with.

https://www.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=buyNow

Or click Auctions Terms & Conditions to go right to the PDF.

Read Page 3. It will tell you what Heritage's policies are.

As per your scenario... The auction house will give you your money back. NGC as a grading company only guarantees their grade/service. They will not give you any money if the coin is later deemed fake.

Auction houses put their reputation at stake. NGC risks nothing with their reputation.

You put your faith into the numismatists at NGC as if they have more expertise than those at auction houses. Why is that exactly? Certainly not to disparage those at NGC who are adequately skilled in the field, but they are not the absolute pinnacle of ancient numismatists.

In some ways, you've been duped by marketing. A belief that if something has been merely encapsulated and graded, it is therefore also authentic. Again. Actually take the time to read the T&Cs(NGC's).

A person can remove a coin out of a slab(unaltered), send it back into NGC and get a completely different grade depending on who looks at it. That shows one how consistent and subjective the process really is.

Hey, I can't fault NGC for taking advantage of this niche. There is obviously a strong market for it, but it really is sort of ruse for those that believe that all collectibles need to be graded and encapsulated.

 

Yeah see HA only issues refunds for fakes if you return it within 7 days.

I doubt most people would be able to have an expert prove it’s fake that quickly.

I’m also pretty sure I can’t just say “Some guys on the CT forums said it’s fake”.

They’d want evidence I’m sure.

It’s not that I assume slab = authentic.

Nor is it that I think NGC graders are perfect at their jobs.

What it is is me trusting their experts more than my own limited knowledge on the subject.

As Socrates once said:

“I know that I know nothing.”

 

Oh yeah I forgot to say this:

If you take a look at the old Athenian owl Tetradrachms you’ll see how many of them have test cuts.

Apparently even back when they were in circulation it was hard to identify a fake by look & feel alone.