Can you define improper storage ?

Good thread, and exactly what I was getting to on your other thread discussing the arbitrariness of "their" definition. Almost all storage, short of modern air controlled environments, will allow toning. What the toner group is saying is "I am used to this type of toning, so I will call it "natural", and anything other than that I will assume was done on "purpose"". My point has always been toning is BAD. ALWAYS BAD. Any corrosion is a defect, and it is not the way the coin left the mint.

However, when trying to collect coins, you have the choice, (since none were stored "perfectly"), of either accepting toned surfaces or cleaned surfaces. If a 150 year old coin is blast white, it HAS been cleaned, no exceptions. So, what is your choice, white cleaned or toned (possibly) uncleaned? I tried to choose toned uncleaned when given a choice, knowing it is dangerous because toning can cover up defects and continue if not abated into outright corrosion and destroy the item.

That is the crux of it, and some toned coin afficianados simply do not like being told toning is by definition "damage", it just can be less "damage" than the alternative of cleaning. That, and they want their toned coins to look like they expect. However, saying that, I do strongly support the hobby trying to turn its back on coins people have toned intentionally, since this encourages damage to be intentionally inflicted onto otherwise good coins. I do so by refusing to pay extra for ANY toned coin. I will pay extra for better surfaces, toned or untoned, but not for "color" since THAT is what encouraged people to intentionally tone coins to begin with!

 

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And that's why IMO, anyone who says: "No such storage exists that can prevent that." Did not think out the reply.

 

Yes, I should have said "No such practical storage exists that can prevent that."

 

Well, this is definitely improper storage:

One way it can be avoided is to choose a non-PVC holder. Other than that, it is difficult to safeguard a coin completely from toning, corrosion, etc.

 

Yes, these are acceptable forms of coin storage that will protect the coins surfaces from getting hit, bumped, scratched etc.

Yes, this is acceptable because it is unreasonable to expect someone to create an vacuum environment for their coins.

NO, this is not OK. I stated this in another thread. Coins are valuables and should be treated as such. It is not acceptable to stuff your coins in a hot/humid attic and treat them the way you treat your high school yearbook.

It makes perfect sense. If you store your coins improperly, and they get ruined by forming AT/QT, then you deserve for your coins to be relegated to be problem coins. It doesn't matter that the grader doesn't know how you stored your coins. All he knows is that your coin is AT/QT. But because you ignored your responsibility to protect your own valuables, you don't get to claim that you had no INTENT to tone your coins as an excuse to claim they aren't AT/QT.

First things first, INTENT is not a factor in grading, because the grader doesn't know your intent.

The choice of storage method includes not only the protective device (eg album, roll, flip, 2X2, envelope etc.) but also the atmospheric environment (eg temperature/humidity controlled or not). Maybe we should insist that the TPGs add the following disclaimer to their back label "store in a cool dry place." Ya know, like we do with a million other products that need protection from the environment.

Improper storage is any condition where you fail to protect your coins from both mechanical or environmental damage. It should be noted that toning by itself is not considered environmental damage, but AT/QT is, and should be.

 

Lol, Cointalk members are famous for that.

 

Maybe the TPG do not label it environmental damage, but by DEFINITION it is. Is the coin the same as the day it left the mint? That is the standard by which all "damage" to a coin is measured. The last time I saw, nickels are bright and shiny when they left the mint. Any toned ones, again by DEFINITION, are environmental damage. It is a change for the worst caused by the environment it was stored in, whether you and others think that damage is pretty or not.

If coins I collected were available uncleaned and untoned, that would be all I collected. I say that because that is how the mint made them, how the mint intended for them to be, and therefore as a coin collector how I would wish to have them. However, they are not available that way, which is why I collect cleaned, worn, scratched, or toned coins. All of these things are DAMAGE, but they are not available in otherwise perfect condition.

I know we all have our preferences, which is great, but everyone should simply be aware that any type of toning, definitionally, is damage because it never left the mint that way. It is a chemically altered surface layer of the coin that can never be reversed or replaced, irreparable damage. If someone wishes to pay extra for a damaged coin, then god bless them and I hope they enjoy themselves. Our hobby has room enough for everyone. I don't understand error collecting either.

 

You are being completely naive. Doug is correct, you can’t stop toning, you can only slow it down. Coins you think are untoned actually have thin layer of toning. The only difference between your coins and mine is the thickness of the sulfide layer.

And if we are talking about damage, real damage, your untoned coins are much more at risk. The large majority of “untoned” classic US coins have been dipped. The dipping process actually strips metal from the surface of the coin.

Furthermore, toning isn’t irreparable damage. You can simply dip the coin and trade one form of damage for another.

 

If its not irreparable damage, can you reverse it and retain the original luster? Of course not. Once an atom is corroded, it is altered forever. It is not reversible by any means I am aware of.

I mentioned above about any "white" coin is cleaned, (dipped), and all collectors need to "pick their poison" since truly original coins mostly do not exist. However, if you say you can dip it, you are admitting to get rid of the corrosion layer you must strip it off, since it is not reversible.

I believe I have been very clear. If you buy an old "white" coin you are buying a cleaned (dipped) coin since most coins have not been stored perfectly. The coin may be white, but has irreversibly lost part of its luster, because a tiny part is now missing. However, that does not mean that toning is NOT corrosion, because it technically is.

Now, if many find their corrosion in certain patterns pretty, then good for them. However, to try to dictate storage requirements to others of THEIR coins so they will create patterns YOU prefer seems kind of peculiar. I prefer everyone store their coins to minimize all damage, including corrosion, as much as possible myself. If someone TODAY stores coins in a manner we all no will promote corrosion, (pretty or otherwise), I am not a fan. Those in the past who did not know the dangers I cannot change.

 

Rinse any contaminants from a coin's surface, then seal it in an atmosphere of nitrogen or argon, and you stop toning. There's nothing for the coin's surface to react with.

I suspect that it's enough to simply remove the contaminants and then seal it in dry air, in a container that doesn't produce reactive substances.

The problem is that not only do most collectors not have a source of pure nitrogen or argon, they don't even have a source of clean and dry (enough) air, nor a proper container. Except the Mason jars Doug mentioned, and I hope the gasket on the lid isn't (sulfur-bearing) rubber.

 

Do you guys understand that your fringe positions and definitions are not what are accepted by the numismatic community? Toning is not considered environmental damage until it reaches end stage. Dipping is not considered harsh cleaning as long as the dipping doesn't impair the luster. Nobody cares about your technicalities. And plenty of coins have been dipped with no discernible impact to the coins luster.

Nobody is trying to dictate storage requirements, other than you need to keep your coins in a cool dry place. All I am saying is that if you store you collectible coins in an harsh hot/humid environment, you run the risk of your coins developing toning patterns that are not NT/MA and that will devalue your coins, and rightly so.

BTW, all my raw coins are kept in Intercept Shield Albums. That's right, the toning enthusiast uses the albums that are most effective at preventing toning. Think about that for a while.

 

...but I insist, 387 angels can dance on the head of a pin!

 

LOL, This discussion is so funny in all respects. I am very happy to have stirred up the pot enough to bring out the expert members here.

For the rest of us, just about every poster is correct! These are not fringe positions either. Each requires discussion to sort out how specific we wish to be. Example, dipping a "white" coin properly once, cannot be detected by us. In the same way storing a coin in a vacuum chamber is not "normal." Nevertheless, they are important cases to remember when posting "absolutes" such as "never."

It's simple:

1. Coins can be prevented from deteriorating. 100% TRUE

2. Toning is a form of "damage" which deteriorates an original surface. 100% TRUE

3. Removing toning alters a coin's surface. 100% TRUE

4. How the numismatic community regards the chemical reactions taking place in the universe is of no consequence outside of their "playground!" It does not alter the TRUTH.

5. Do I care? NO! Mostly true, otherwise I would not post this.

 

I am left with one burning question: What heinous injury did your high school yearbook possibly inflict on you?

 

Step 1: Don’t pay $$$$$ for coins that will deterioirate over time
Step 2: Store your coins in a place where further damage is significantly less likely to occur
Step 3: Calm down and stop freaking about tiny little things which do not really matter in the grand scheme of things

 

I am one day post-prep for a colonoscopy that could not go forward due to a snowstorm, so cancer is on my mind. A little more than a year ago, I lost my last family elder to cancer. Every relative whose cause of death I know is cancer. Most of my maternal relatives many people would deride as “religious freaks”. They all led their lives as in Jesus would personally smite them if they had an impure thought. They ALL died by age 75, with one exception. My dad was a hard drinking, hard cussing, skirt chasing, sketchy business ethics sunuvagun who was a pure hedonist. He never took care of himself and never had a regular physician. He made it to 95. His brother, cut of the same cloth, 101 and healthy as a horse.

Here’s my point. Taking care of things is not enough. You have to have some luck of the draw too. I have ZERO idea what was growing undetected on my Teletrade coins when I got them. Many Teletrade coins went nonstop from owner to TPG to Teletrade for sale.

What happens to my coins depends not ONLY on whatever insults they’ve suffered since I’ve had them, but what was their situation BEFORE ME. My bought coins are chemically unstable. Because of the type of coins I submit (all blast white or red), and I acetone bathe EVERYTHING before I send it, maybe mine will be okay. It’s like getting cancer. We never know the precise cause.

Our moms were right about this - you don’t know where that thing’s been.