Featured Can you define artificial toning ?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by GDJMSP, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Not in any garish rainbow manner, no. I have all 33 years of ASE's in the same Dansco I started them in, in 1988. There is very minor edge toning on Page 1, but that's it. No special handling whatsoever. That's where I stand on the issue. Show me ANY ASE with garish color, and I'll show you "intent"/AT.

    Oh, and by the way, until a year ago, I lived in a very high ambient sulfur content soil area. Less so in downtown Harrisburg the past year, unless you count diesel exhaust.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Do you store your coins in an air conditioned home?

    Have you ever forgotten to put the acetate slide back in? You would be surprised what can happen when air flow increases.

    How about the PCI ASEs? The actual inserts caused dramatic rainbow toning in just a few years while the labels say “100% white”!
     
  4. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Early soap bar ANACS too. My coins are in my home, yes. Secured building. I use far less AC (and heat) than the average bear. A side effect of my brain injury - I'm very temperature tolerant. I can be comfortable from 55 to 80. No, I've never forgotten the acetate.

    No PCI coins. I only ever bought any to crack them out IMMEDIATELY.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  5. SlipperySocks

    SlipperySocks Well-Known Member

    Interesting, I assumed the slide trapped the gases onto the coin and caused the toning over time. I wondered if opening them all up often would slow any toning progression.
     
  6. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    The acetate slide inhibits toning, that I can say for certain. "Ordinary and prudent care" - it's the Bellman standard and it's not up for debate. If something tones despite our best efforts to STOP IT, that is the point where legitimacy BEGINS.
     
    SlipperySocks likes this.
  7. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    I tend to think of gas as natural because one can not prove intent. Liquid, gels, etc, must be applied but not gas. Gas as a liquid is different than gas as an air born chemical.
     
  8. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Yikes, I dunno, man. Hydrogen sulfide gassing is what started this talk, in a different thread.
     
  9. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I can't really see the toning that well on the 49-D, but those coins look fantastic from a toning perspective. Intercept Shield went out of business I believe so airtites are probably your best bet.
     
    SlipperySocks likes this.
  10. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Easy. When the toning is quite obviously artificial.
     
  11. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Wrong, I’ve already established that artificial toning can develop as a result of improper storage.
     
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Wrong. No one accidentally stores their coins in a potato
     
  13. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    No matter how outrageous the toning, there is a scenario in which that toning could have developed naturally with regards to intent. That is the entire crux of Doug’s argument.

    The grader can never be 100% sure about the intent of the owner(s)!
     
    Jaelus likes this.
  14. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    That still does not change the fundamental definition of “artificial”:

    “made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, typically as a copy of something natural.”

    Toning induced through natural means is usually deemed market acceptable, regardless of intent. What you are arguing is the difference between market acceptable/unacceptable toning, not natural/artificial toning. HUGE difference, one I would expect you to know for someone who worships market grading.

    Thus I reiterate my definition of artificial toning:

    Putting a coin into an environment WITH THE INTENTION of making it tone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    V. Kurt Bellman likes this.
  15. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    If you need to refer to unknowable information to define it, you haven't defined it.

    You're looking at a coin you have never seen before. Is the toning AT or NT? How do you define that with information that you could possibly know? That is the question.
     
  16. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Yes I have. You just quoted it. Maybe you should read it.

    No, the question is “Is it market acceptible or not?”
     
  17. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Is it?

    20181114_093618.jpg
     
    NPCoin likes this.
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    The question of the thread is how to define artificial toning, not how to spot it. My definition, based on the fundamental definition of “artificial,” is the most correct one. But it was challenged and the question was raised about how to spot it 100% of the time. The answer is you can’t, so it boils down to whether or not the toning is market acceptable.
     
    LakeEffect and V. Kurt Bellman like this.
  19. UncleScroge

    UncleScroge Well-Known Member

    I agree with SlipperySocks' post of yesterday at 4:31pm! That's my 2¢. Also, we could run it by Mike Mezak to get his opinion.
     
  20. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Any idea how long those nickels have been in that Dansco? I ask only because I too have a Dansco Jeff book, and I've had it a LONNNNG time and I have no blue on mine.

    As an aside, ANY discussion of toning on nickels HAS TO set aside a special category for the proofs of the early 1960's. There is a HUGE tendency for the 1961 to tone yellow-greenish, and the 1962 to tone blue, while spending eternity right next to each other. I've asked all the experts I can find and the top theory is trace metals in the alloy since Day One. My suspicion has always been different plastics in the mint packaging.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    ToughCOINS likes this.
  21. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    I don't disagree with what you're saying. I think AT/NT is a pointless distinction to make.

    Having said that, I question the value of a definition that cannot be applied to identify the item it defines in a real world scenario.
     
    Lehigh96 likes this.
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