Featured Can you define artificial toning ?

This is why we can’t have nice things!!!

A really good question, a very lively debate, and of course the few who can’t seem to discuss the topic without making it personal.

It’s far better to be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.

 

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It’s what private pecuniary interest does to many people, Mike. Throwing shade on their specialty has potential financial consequences for them. As I wrote before, I am convinced that the toner market (outside of Morgans which have had storage conditions nothing else has had in numbers) is a part scam, part self-delusion. The tremendous LACK of toners in this year’s New York vault horde (Ironic spelling intentional) of Morgans should raise skepticism all by itself. If Jeff Garrett himself finds it “puzzling”, as he has said, that all by itself should speak volumes. There are either “too many toners out there to be all legit” or mathematically one can posit that they are all in relatively few hands and they need a “pump and dump” exit strategy. The asking prices on Paul’s website tell me he’s not in this for charitable or educational purposes. Either way, skepticism is the only reasonable approach to them.

P.S. Paul, even this ardent skeptic has to admit some of your stock IS very pretty.

 

Untrue premise.

 

P.P.S. Mike, I know you and I both are into cameo proofs. Sadly, in ANACS soap bar era plastic, even THEY seem to be ethereal things. Enjoy your coins present tense, people. Their future is NOT certain.

 

I personally would ascribe the verb "admit", rather than "believe", but that's just me. I'm paid to ascribe sinister motives to the other side of an argument.

I must be okay at it, because my boss just became the first and only person in the entire history of the PA General Assembly to be elected to 22 full 2-year terms. No one back to the 1600's has pulled that off before. The guy he beat in 1994 was me.

 

My thoughts exactly. No one can tell either way if it’s absolutely natural, artificial, intentional or unintentional.
Market acceptable or unacceptable is really what it will boil down to every single time.

 

The market decides, based on what each individual that makes up the market likes/dislikes.

oh, and...

 

Moving target with no hope of long term consistency anywhere near the dividing line.

 

Yep. And unless I get it for NO PREMIUM PRICE AT ALL, I dislike the whole shmeer.

 

The lack of toners in the New York Vault Hoard is likely because the bags were probably not treated with sulfur, and the environmental conditions in the vault were not conducive to the formation of toning. Furthermore, those are MORGAN DOLLARS and you already admitted in the previous sentence that you believe Morgan toners are legitimate because of their storage conditions.

Since you like to reference me specifically in these situations, let's use one of my coins as an example, the 1924-D SLQ NGC MS67. I just looked through the Heritage Auction archives for all the MS65 or better graded 1924-D SLQs, which was over 350 coins, in search for coins that had rainbow toning dramatic enough to generate a premium price.

Heritage Auction Archives 1924-D SLQs

I found only two, and they were the same coin auctioned at different times. Your first claim is that "there are too many toners out there to be all legit." The truth is that toners are RARE. Based on this particular coin, they are less than 1% of the coins on the market. Just like TPG mistakes get all the attention, and all the properly graded coins get ignored, guys like you point to a rainbow toned coin and call it a hoax despite the fact that they are an extremely small % of the total coin population.

And since you want to talk about pricing, let's examine that other SLQ from the Heritage archives which is a 1924-D SLQ NGC MS66*.

1924-D 25C MS66 ★ NGC June 2005 $2,990

1924-D 25C MS66 ★ NGC June 2013 $1763.68




Now compare that coin with my coin which is an MS67.





I won't post a link to my coin (because it violates forum rules), but it is easy enough to find and my advertised sale price as well as my initial purchase price are both inside the price range defined by the Heritage MS66*. Additionally, my coin is listed as a BIN or Best Offer so when it sells, it will likely sell at an offer price well below my ask price. I purchased the coin nearly a decade ago and paid full retail for it and will likely take a loss when I sell it.

What you call "skepticism" I call paranoia!

 

Improper storage is a poor excuse. Most people who buy NGC & PCGS coins don't store them in hot & humid garages or attics. And your assertion that I am the one out of ten that actually does store my coins properly is ridiculous. I have been a frequent member on all the major coin forums for over a decade and this topic comes up from time to time. Occasionally, a member will post their experience where a single coin turned in its holder. NEVER, I REPEAT, NEVER, have I heard anyone claim that all of their certified coins turned in their holders as a result of nature.

Nobody is disputing that toning can be accelerated with heat and chemicals. What I am disputing is your assertion that it can be done to replicate NT/MA easily. Most attempts at AT yield the ridiculous coins that we all laugh at and instantly dismiss at AT. The coin doctors who have the skills to replicate NT/MA are very rare and even they don't have anywhere near 100% success rates.

You talk about smart guys, there are a lot of smart guys on this forum. I challenge anyone of them to AT a coin with an NT/MA toning pattern. I've issued this same challenge for years, and currently, I am 100%.

 

FWIW, while I’m NO FAN of the genre generally, as we’ve more than established, the “other” picture you posted is ugly as heck in my eyes and is the kind of looking thing a few of my coins turned into in the slab. I find that hideous. I’d prefer yours any day. A star is for exceptional eye appeal. It’s not appealing to my eye even a little bit.

 

The best analysis and explanation of toning I have run into was by Doug Kurz who I believe put together the Sunnywood collection of Morgans. I have explanation of and links to PDFs on toning that can be accessed here http://www.1881o.com/toned-coins.html

The beauty of Doug's work is that he explains the progression of toning and what should be there with toned coins. You can tone any coin with the right chemicals, but coins that tone slowly over an extended period just take on a different look and the toning progression is almost always there. Doug also does some work to differentiate bag toning from other color so that one can try to see the difference.

This is the only person I have seen publish scientific work on toning in recent years. The Sunnywood collection brought record prices and shows the premium some collectors put on certified toned coins. Even the TPGs can be fooled, but when I am buying a toned coin I only by ones in holders. While not perfect it is at least one line of defense.

 

Great articles. Thanks for sharing!

 

I think market acceptability standards are probably created mostly through discussions like the one in this thread and many others on this and other forums and even on different platforms such as Instagram. Also, discussions at coin shows and coin clubs.
People will discuss what looks good and what looks bad to them. Eventually over time a certain look will become widely accepted as “good.” I think TPG graders might be influenced by those type of discussions. They still won’t know what the submitter’s or last owner’s intentions were with any coin, but they can say “hey, based on the way the wind is blowing in the current market I think this toning is good.” But ultimately that’s just the opinion of a small group of people.
I’ve seen countless toned coins that were straight graded by the top two that I wouldn’t touch with a 10’ pole. I’ve also seen coins that got QC’d that make me scratch my head.
The NT vs MA vs AT vs QC debate is a great one. Obviously. This thread has amassed a double digit page count very quickly. But anyone who thinks there will someday be a black and white answer to determining the validity of a coins toning is just delusional.
After several thousand years humans still can’t agree on how many gods there are or if there even is one!
Hot topics like these maybe aren’t meant to be settled...

 

Good points and brings me around to say that I view toned coins almost like art. If I like the color and the price is acceptable then I buy, if not then not. A Picasso if viewed as components is nothing more than canvas, wood, and paint and not worth much at all. But some view the resulting painting as attractive or desirable and are willing to pay a premium for it. The value is determined by the purchaser and not the seller or the components. Like all coins buy what you like to collect and if some profit results great, but if not then you had a chance to own what you appreciate.

 

Perfect! I choose not to play in any pool that murky. I like my categories like my pool water - unambiguously clear.

 

Well let's stay out of the murky waters of grading, we might all choke on that one.