Calling all owners of coin sites

Yes indeed. And Heritage will sue to protect its copyrights. See link. Cal

Link: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/01/03/heritage-auctions-sues-christies-copyrights/id=76452/

 

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But it does look like the user of the images was looking to make money from HA's efforts. I would assume they would be more agreeable to a purely academic effort with proper attribution to them.

 

Who owns this image

 

Definitely. They've already allowed the Newman Portal to setup click-throughs to its catalogs and prices realized. And it looks like images of the catalog covers will be there soon too.

Cal

 

Just to play the devil's advocate with coins, does anyone actually own an image of an object that is a public domain object? All government documents are in the public domain so far as I know, so can you have a proprietary image of a public object? Does the copyright reside with the Mint who created the object (coin in this case) and not the person/entity taking the picture?

 

Please don't hold me to it, but if I recall correctly the photo is what is copyrighted and regardless of ownership of the subject.

If you went to a national or state park and took a landscape shot of public land, the photo still belongs to the photographer and not the entity in control of the lands. I don't see how it can be any different with coins.

 

I actually think you are right, but what started me thinking about it was pictures of famous people. Ansel Adams certainly owns his work because his photographic skill was a value add to what was often pictures of public lands. But if I took what became an iconic picture of Elvis, do I own the rights to it jointly with his estate?

For a coin, or art, or anything else of artistic value, I think it might be a little different. A photograph of the Mona Lisa that I snap going through the Louvre might be mine, but I doubt I have marketing rights to my picture when the image is of something I did not create.

If a coin is an artistic creation of the Mint can anyone really claim "ownership" of an image of their work? And if their work is in the public domain how does taking a picture of it take it out of the public domain?

Probably a good coffee shop debate and nothing more.

 

For public lands, yes. But private property is different. If you have a personal photo on a website featuring your family with the Magic Kingdom in the background expect to hear from their lawyers. We were counseled by our school district's attorney that Disney ordered teachers to remove such photos from their district websites as the district got sued and lost with an award for damages.

 

In my book, I am referencing that "you can research recent and historical prices of error coins auctioned off at trustworthy sites, including Heritage Auctions, Stacks & Bowers, Great Collections, and to some degree even eBay."

I do not need permission from them to write that exact phrasing as it is a statement of fact. I can even say that on occasion, the listing on a particular auction site contained an error in the listing, and describe and reference the exact listing and site on a particular date and quote the listing.

Can I show a screen shot of the faulty listing in my book? Yes, I can. Just as much as NBC can show a chevy logo while they report a story on faulty seatbelts with their Trailblazers if such a thing were a real story..

Knowing I can, would I show the screenshot of the faulty listing in my book? Not a chance. I don't have the resources an auction company has to slap me with lawsuits they know they would lose in court, but also know I can't afford to fight them, in an effort to kill something embarrassing.

 

Anything created by the government is fair use, as well as anything the government paid a private individual to produce. I can take photos of a police station, cop cars, documents, coins, statues or monuments, works of art, even photos of the Mint on the Treasury's website or screenshots from government produced videos and put them in my book to be sold for profit. Exceptions include items relating to national security, but the NY Times repeatedly does so anyway.

 

Under your assumption my wanting to document that Coin A appeared in the Heritage sale on 1/1/2011 is a statement of fact and not subject to copyright limits. I assume that stating a similar coin appeared in The Numismatist in 1998 is also a statement of fact only so long as I don't quote the article in its original form without giving them credit.

 

Exactly

 

I actually give broad recognition to all the sources by stating that the data comes from auction catalogs on the given date, but I do not lift quotes and claim them. With the TPG's I only state that one was spotted in a TPG holder or that the information was located on their public database. I do not quote grades or certificate numbers.

I decided that I can avoid the image issue by creating my own examples, which in this case is possible because it is placement of data that I need to illustrate and most images are old and blurred.

In all cases I am looking for the last sighting of the coin.

I haven't said but this has been one of the more informative, pleasant, and reasonable discussions I have seen posted here. Thanks for whoever started it and all who participated. It is nice to hear how others have dealt with such issues.

 

Absolutely 100% agree. Everyone has been polite and with the intention of being helpful in a non-arrogant way. Cointalk is truly the best site for this type of discussion.

 

I agree this has been a good discussion. I'll admit I was a bit wary of posting it, sometimes these things turn into heated arguments about right and wrong.

 

This!

One thing I'm not sure about however is if images can become public domain after a period of time. Much in the same way that songs (such as the happy birthday song) and stories/books (such as works by the Brothers Grim) become Public domain.

 

Copyrights expire when the creator dies plus 70 years (up to 120 years total in some circumstances). Copyright duration keeps getting extended by Congress thanks to Hollywood. OMG, the copyright on Gone with the Wind and Wizard of Oz is about to expire! Shovel some more money into congressional campaigns and get the copyrights extended. Happened multiple times between 1962-1974, again in 1976, and yet again in 1998.

You can make a discovery that will improve folks lives ... vaccines, drugs, MRI, electronics, etc. ... and you get only a 20 year patent. But the crappiest work of art (painting, image, movie, text, tune, etc.) gets protected for 70 years or longer, no questions asked.

It will be interesting to see how things develop with the web. Probably most of the personal pictures and videos on the web, and there are billions, won't have a provable or traceable origin in a decade or two. Copyright duration varies by country, with the US having the longest. So if the copyright on an image has expired in Asia, but not the US, can it be put on a server there and be accessed here without successful legal recourse?

Cal