Calling All Denarii Experts: L. Calpurnius Piso Frugi

Hi everyone, I'm collector of Roman denarii, both Republican and Imperial, and I'm doing a bit of research into the denarii of L. Calpurnius Piso Frugi, in particular the laureate Apollo denarius in my avatar.

I don't know much about republican coins at all, but I am aware from a bit of research I've done that this particular coin that there were multiple issues under different moneyers of the same name.

So does anybody have any good information on this type of coin? Also, can anybody refer me to some good online information regarding republican coins in general?

 

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/system_pages/holding_area/research/rrc/roman_republican_coins.aspx

Is the British Museum online. I believe they are still working on getting all of their coins on there.

 

might find something here.

http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/

"Many other coins of L.PISO FRVGI are similar to this one, being struck with the same object, only differing in moneyers' marks — such as emblems, letters, or numerals; of which there is a prodigious series extant: insomuch that Cavedoni makes mention of 221 varieties having been found in the famous hoard at Fiesole, probably hidden 82 BC. Even Morel, who figured no fewer than 133 specimens, had not got some of those before us now, and there are numerous others still unpublished; so that the quantity, for one family's striking, seems almost incredible, and shows the wonderful fertility of the Roman mint."

 

Thanks! That looks like a great resource, I will be checking it out.

 

This is excellent. The quote you provided is very helpful.

The more I delve into this one the more I am astonished at the number of varieties.

 

If you really getting into these, I highly recommend at the least Sear's Volume I of Roman Coins and their Values. The valuations are over a decade old, but great for showing relative values of these. Great information as well. Crawford of course is the standard reference, but kind of hard to use, and no pricing information of course. There are other books, but these are great to start. I would use the BM website as a supplement to these.

 

I got that book (and Vol. 2 as well) yesterday at the ANA Library. Just thumbing through the book it looks like a great resource if you collect Roman coins.

 

Thanks!

Actually, valuation isn't really what I'm interested in. I'm looking at it more from a numismatic perspective than a collectible perspective. So what I'm trying to figure out is the history of the coin, the various series, mintmark catalogs, that sort of thing.

In that vein, any sort of primary written sources related to Roman coinage would be interested. Are there any ancient treatises on coins? Or compilations of of ancient references to coins? Anything anybody knows about in this regard would be very helpful.

 

Not really sir. If you are really wanting to get into the history of Republican issues, there are books written about the period, but not from the period. Crawford did one, (besides his catalog), and others. The link Randy gave you had some references I believe you would like.

The Sear book, btw, is not JUST prices. It is some background, denominations, etc also. Besides, you may not care about values once you buy it, but you sure don't want to pay for a rare issue if its a common issue, right? I stand by my statement that the Sear book would be invaluable to you sir, but of course you do not have to listen.

Chris

 

I appreciate it. I'm just not building my collection or personal library at the moment, so free resources are my preference. The reason I ask for all this information is that I am planning to write an article about the coin, and I'm starting from scratch.

There is just so much I don't know and I don't know where to start. For instance, how do we know these silver pieces were even called denarii? Are there any ancient literary references? I've also heard of the office of Roman moneyer, one of the viri monetales, who issued the Republican currency. How do we know about that office, is there a direct source?

I'll see about finding Sear's at a public library, because it certainly doesn't seem like something I can afford not to look at. But what I meant earlier is that my goal here is academic, not related to my personal collection.

 

Oh, ok I get you now. Most of these questions were answered well in older volumes, so I would go to your library and see what is available. Most likely you will need to use interlibrary loan. Use Randy's link and check which resources would be valuable to read.

Answering your questions, there are many ancient references in passing to denominations of coins, organization of different offices, etc. However, no book survives that looks at all of these issues from a numismatic perspective. Therefor, a book like Mattingly's would be more to your point. When available, many of these books reference the Roman sources where the data comes from.

 

http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/numismatics/faqpages/nncpubs.htm

You might enjoy Life In Republican Rome On its Coinage by Elvira Eliza Clain-Stefanelli, 1999. It is still available from the government and not too overwhelming. It does not answer all of your questions but is more of a primer for those potentially interested in the subject.

 

Hi:
I just joined this forum yesterday and hesitate to reply to your thread for "denarii experts", but I do collect books and auction catalogs on Roman Republican coins and a few coins as my budget is limited for coins.

First I think we should determine that your coin is of L. Calpurnius Piso Frugi, dated 90 B.C. and not that of his son, C. Calpurnius Piso Frugi. dated 67 B.C. If you look on the reverse and the legend starts with an L.(Lucius), then it is of course the one dated 90 B.C., but if it starts with a C(Gaius), then it is the son dated 67 B.C.

If it is indeed the son C(Gaius), as I believe it will be, then you will probably also find on the reverse of your coin what looks like a G above the rider. The G is the control mark for the reverse and the Y(with sort of an upper vertical bar) on the obverse would be the control mark for the obverse. Control marks were a sort of inefficient way to keep track of the different dies used. Of course if your coin is indeed that of Lucius. then it would have a different control symbol.

The issues of both Lucius and Caius are extensive and both used control symbols generally on both sides of their coins.

The coins of Caius(67 B.C.) have been researched thoroughly by Charles Hersh in the Numismatic Chronicle for 1976 and he catalogued almost 500 different combinations of these control marks. Yours may be Herch 111 if it has the G on the reverse.
If your coin is actually that of Lucius, then I don't know of a catalog of them. I hope I haven't confused you as is this my first time on this forum.

There are 2 main books on Roman Republican coins. One is Crawford's Roman Republican Coinage(RRC), which is great for the dating and has other good information. The other is the British Museum Roman Republican Coins(BMRRC), which has outdated dating but much historical information not in Crawford. However, both are expensive and hard to get.

I think your best bet is to go to the link to the British Museum given in an earlier thread. It has a good introduction to Roman Republican coins and the moneyers. Also it has thousands of pictures of Roman Republican Coins, but you need the Crawford # from the catalog mentioned above. Here's what you can do. If you want to see the coins of Lucius, type in 340* and it will bring up over 500 pictures of his coins. If you want to see coins of Gaius, then type in 408* and over 300 pictures will be yours. When you click on the small picture of each coin, a large high quality picture will show up. Along with the pictures is a description of the control marks on both the Obv and Rev, although they call them "inscriptions". Also further down will often be acquisition information, including biography of the collector if a bequeth or dealer information if acquired from a dealer. I believe some of the coins were given by one of the British Kings.

The link to Andrew McCabe will take you to a wealth of information of Roman Republican Coins and books and I highly recommend it.

Lucius and Caius both belong to the Calpurnia family and there is a very interesting article on the internet about them and their coins. If you type in C. Calpurnius Piso L. F. Frugi in google, then the 7th entry is a PDF file about them.

I have a special interest in Caius since I have the Numismatic Chronicle listing of his coins, although since I have only 3 of his almost 500 varieties I can't really say I am trying to compete the series! Also the Apollo obverses have some of the most beautiful portraits, which are also in high relief. And the control marks on them are quite interesting. My user name is their family name Calpurnia.
Also, when I see a picture of one of Caius' coins in a dealer's listing or ebay, I try to determine what Hersh # it is(Your avatar is what drew me to your thread). Also it is interesting that dealers will sometimes confuse the coins of Caius with those of Lucius.

By the way, the word denarius stands for 10 asses, and the early denarii had the roman numeral X(for 10) on them. If we think in terms of american coins, the Roman As is about the size of the copper Large Cent of the 1800's and Roman Denarius would be similar to our silver 10 cent piece or Dime.

 

Welcome Calpurnia, (love the name btw). Sure sounds like you are an expert in these, more so than most here. I am slowly getting into them a little more, but do not have the level of knowledge of you. I know my avatar is a RR, but I am more into Central Asian and Byzantines.

Chris

 

Hi Medorama:

Good to hear from you. I have read many of your interesting posts in the past. I recognized your avatar as an RR, with Diana on the obverse and probably a hound on the Reverse. I especially like the toning on it; the contrast on it is outstanding and makes for a good avatar. A lot of American collectors probably prefer brilliant ancient coins, but I like toned coins, especially "Cabinet Toning". I especially like good VF coins with a 2 tone(dark fields and lighter devices. Some EF and FDC RR denarii have weakly struck devices or the top most surfaces, even though mint state, are kinda bumpy, whereas a well struck specimen can be worn down a bit so that a VF specimen is to me much more pleasant and a whole lot less expensive. I think I read similar comments from Doug Smith here some time ago, so I think I am not alone in my thinking. Anyway I enjoy my dozen RR denarii.

I never got into Byzantine or Central Asia coins but I think all coins are interesting, and often lack of a strong interest is due to lack of books on the coins or people to learn from.

 

Definitely not alone in your thinking. Welcome to CT btw.

 

Very insightful actually. You are correct there are not many good English language books on these. I don't know if its a chicken or the egg thing, the coins aren't as plentiful so books aren't written, or people don't collect because no books.

I like the cabinet toning on this piece as well, but I way overpaid for it. If you go back about 3 months you can read the post why I bought this piece, even though I am not a big RR collector. I do find them fascinating, though, and have a lot of respect for collectors of them. I am sure all of us would love to any more of your pieces.

Chris

 

Generally the longer one collects ancients the more likely one is to become of the opinion that coins are graded more by eye appeal than by technical details like US coins (how many letters in Liberty show or how many steps are on the monument). I once saw an opinion that I believe has some merit: 'There are only two grades of coins; those I like and those I don't.' Toning can make or break the 'like' question. I find many of the premium toned silver dollars being cherished currently to be blotchy and ugly. In another hundred years they will probably be darker, smoother and prettier. The question is whether collectors in 2112 will appreciate tones or if blast white will be the craze. We will never know.

 

I replaced my Julia S. just because of that reason. My current had a "frosty" look but it was from cleaning marks. After a year I just couldnt tolerate it anymore so my new one, which I got a good deal on, same type too, should be here today or tomorrow.

Im slowly weeding out the eye sores for better replacements, even if they arent CNG quality still. ;p

 

I think the comment that there are only 2 grades of coins, "Coins I like and Coins I don't like" is most appropriate.
One pleasant aspect of being a collector of Roman Republican denarii is that I won't have to decide if I prefer rain bow toned or "blast white" uncirculated coins, or perhaps more importantly I won't have to go to extra measures to preserve the tone or the "blast white", since nature is always going to be conspiring to turn either one into a dark, surface and nature will certainly win out. You never see a rainbow toned or "blast white" ancient silver coin, or least not an original one.

Since my Roman Republican denarii have already lost the battle over rainbow or "blast white" toning to Nature, I can concentrate on determining if the strike is strong, or if it has really distracting scratches or nicks or very importantly, does it have a nice dark tone to it that makes it look like an antique(ancient) coin and do enough of the design elements remain to have "eye appeal". The design may be diminished by wear, weak strike, off center strike, or deposits or banker's marks(actually I don't mind minor banker's marks in the field).
And if it's in a slab, it won't be for long.
Of course if I were a beginner I would maybe prefer bright ancient coins and feel secure that slabbed one are authentic, but I believe that most longer term ancient coin collectors want a coin to look like an ancient coin(toned) and one that they can actually handle.
It really does boil down to "Is it a coin I like or a coin I don't like" and the decision is one most experienced ancient coin collectors prefer to make and are able to make without the aid of a third part grading service.