cac stickers can help a coin when selling

All comments in a good discussion are welcome, to me.
Whether the opinion is in agreement or not, it doesn't matter.
In most great conversations, everybody learns something, or experiences a pov that was not considered prior.
Comment away!!!!

 

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Or, he simply wanted it in the holder he thought it actually deserved. Some people are weird that way.

 

He wanted the CAC and it couldn't get the sticker at MS-66.

 

So true..if everyone here agreed with 100% of what I post, what the hell would I learn here ? Whey even come to CT ?

Love the give-and-take, especially the veterans who have done this longer and with more intensity than I have. I have learned so much from them. Thanks !

 

Good comments in this thread. I read the JA interview article and understand his reasoning for starting CAC from a dealer- economics viewpoint. However, this just underscores the weakness in the TPG grading system. If a coin that's technically graded MS 65 hurts the market value of other similarly graded coins then one needs to ask why? What are the measurable features that separate A, B, and C coins? Do we really need another company determining this or should the TPGs like NGC and PCGS provide more meaningful information on their slabs (ie, strike, luster, eye appeal, ...) that would do away with an additional layer, such as CAC? I realize that this topic has been around the block countless times in this forum so don't shoot me. Yes, the reality is that CAC coins generally bring premiums. I wonder what percentage of non-beaned NGC and PCGS slabs have gone to CAC already and how many have been resubmitted?

 

Many have been cracked out and resubmitted, after an evaluation as a D. The person re-submitting doesn't even know it was a re-submittal to CAC, because the person they obtained the piece from didn't disclose it or didn't know.

As long as there are TPGs, there will definitely be a need for a 4PG, to keep the hobby on a level playing field.
The meaningful information mentioned, is formed by unequal opinion. There will always be a segment of the hobby that would disagree on any given coin/day. Why? Because every person does not have the exact same vision and knowledge and experience.

I described earlier in the thread, what should occur as to professional testing of TPG Graders. I first presented my position in 2008 on the PCGS Board. I still have never had anybody give a reasonable counter position as to why not. Most hobbyists agree.

I also described the exact same opinion in 2011 on the NGC Board. There was, again, hobbyist agreement.

But, until the equal playing field and checks and balances of Graders is implemented, by professional testing and registration, that equals the stringent requirements of any licensed profession, and what is best for the hobby is agreed to...market grading or technical grading or making a market grading....yes, the 4PG is not only needed, it is required to prevent the old abuses that were prevalent in the past.

 

If anything, I think that some of the "C" coins are probably more deserving of a 1-grade lower reduction. I simply never bought that the "A" coins were a 65.7 and the " "B" coins a 65.4 and the "C" coins a 65.1. We have experts all disagreeing many times by 1 or 2 grade increments....and NOW I'm supposed to believe that "expert" graders can accurately grade in tenths of a point ?

Don't get me wrong...I have no problem in stating that there are strong, OK, and weak coins for a particular grade. But most of the time it's tough to grade them numerically within a tenth or mentally A-B-C. Only AFTER THE FACT is it clear, IMO.

I also think part of this is market vs. technical grading, as GDJMSP has harped on.

Reminds me of economists who would give GDP estimates -- to the nearest billion dollars when they are more likely to be off by TENS of billions, if not more !!

You have 2 grades on Ancients, but I think having all the additional "clutter" you want on the label (even though informative, IMO) would just confuse the novices and tee off the experts/veterans/dealers.

OTTOMH....I would think it is pretty small. Not sure if CAC lists all approved and submitted coins, but compared to the total of graded coins by PCGS and NGC, it must be small.

Veterans probably have a better idea....

 

Wouldn't matter. They could put a billion things on the label and people would still value outside opinions. The part that often gets over looked is that CAC isn't successful because of TPG failures, they're really successful because of the expertise and reputation they bring. Many other companies have tried to do the same and essentially none of them have come anywhere close to the same level of success even the ones that do different types of coins like moderns or world coins. Even PhotoSeal which is widely accepted and desired by specialists isn't as well known.

There will always be a market for another expert opinion and a market for identifying the better for the grade things. CAC will even freely admit they never imagined they would be doing a lot of the coins they get sent by collectors as they were initially for high end stuff. Most dealers would prefer they don't exist as it raises their cost and makes it harder to say all their stuff is PQ blah blah blah. Co-lectors value the extra expert opinion and quite frankly its not shocking given how dramatically so many collectors/dealers attitudes change about a coin based off of whether they are buying or selling it

 

They have a population report and it's minuscule compared to the total graded coins. Now granted many of the coins don't qualify for submission but there are numerous areas where the success rate is well under 10% of whats been submitted

Most series aren't that bad and some are super easy like mid ms mercs and commems. If you're talking about gold stickers I think the last time I eye balled that it was like less than 1 percent or less than 5 percent (something insanely low like that) of stickers they give out period and MANY of the gold stickers are on mid ms mercs

https://caccoin.com/pop/

 

Yup, I never heard of PhotoSeal...gonna check them out now.

Are you saying there are other CAC-like firms out there that tried to grade the TPGs ? My understanding was that CAC was the first and only one but I guess I am wrong.

If you accept that a 1-Standard Deviation of accuracy is brought by a TPG then 1 grade means accuracy about 66% of the time. Using 2 graders (2 SD's) means closer to 95% accuracy.

Or something like that.....

 

I guess when you specialize in a particular coin type, you can achieve a level of grading expertise that the TPGs -- who have to be experts in EVERYTHING -- just can't match:
________________

"What is Photo Seal?

Eagle Eye Rare Coins specializes in Flying Eagle and Indian Cents. We have sold well over $1 million worth of these coins to collectors every year since our company was formed in 1993. In 1994, we decided that it would benefit collectors if we made a buy and sell market in Flying Eagle and Indian Cents. One rule of this market is that our buy price is no less that 75% of our selling price. In theory, this should work very well, but in practice, with the current available supply of NGC and PCGS certified coins (also known as slabs), it is impossible.

Not all certified coins are equal. We have seen coins that are in reality no better than MS-63's sitting in MS-66 holders. Our records prove that over 1/2 of the Flying Eagle and Indian Cents in slabs today are overgraded or just plain ugly. Even one overgraded coin in the marketplace makes a buy sell market based solely on slabs impossible. Since we see and sell more high grade Flying Eagle and Indian Cents than anyone, we were in a unique position to put our knowledge and experience to work in creating true consistency in the grading of slabs.

 

There’s a world coin version, modern version, dealer versions that sell their own inventory of stuff they sell publicly stickered and so on

 

CAC is a minor problem in the coin market. Stolen goods is the real supressor of prices as it drives millions of potential people from the market. As long as the graders and the dealers continue to soft on stolen coins, the market is warped.

 

None of the major TPGs are soft on stolen coins. The head of CAC has literally been/is apart of nonprofits where one of the issues is dealing with them and the TPGs have been a part of helping recover numerous stolen coins.

 

they all are. It is fair to say the entire industry is soft on stolen goods.

 

Do you mean COIN DOCTORING ? I think that's been a legitimate topic of discussion, I never heard of a problem involving stolen coins.

For high-end stuff, it can be very difficult to sell such items as alerts go out. I know high-end stuff in the past that got stolen and nobody ever saw it for resale...you wonder if someone literally is still holding it in their collection.

Last year at FUN there was a posted reward for stolen $5,000 or $10,000 bills (probably worth $500,000 or so) in another state a few days before FUN began....anybody recall if they caught the perp ?

 

What makes you say that ?

I'm not sure the TPGs would KNOW if someone is submitting stolen (raw) coins -- how would they know ? -- but if they got an alert on stolen raw coins and then they were submitted to a TPG (or brought to a coin dealer) I would think they will call the police.

For high-end stuff, it's easy to be on alert. If you are talking about a bunch of raw common Morgans, well, maybe they slip through.

 

No it’s not

 

They know WHO is submitting coins and are fully aware of patterns and pedigrees. Banking anti-laundring rules are examples of the kind of methods one takes when they want to prevent the trafficing in stolen goods.

 

Who are these people submitting stolen coins, where are these coins showing up ?