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<p>[QUOTE="Insider, post: 2300869, member: 24314"]Insider said: <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/goto/post?id=2300591#post-2300591" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/goto/post?id=2300591#post-2300591">↑</a></p><p>Yes, market grading was the next step: however Market grading DOES NOT describe a coin's actual condition. Technical grading did accurately described a coin's condition.</p><p><br /></p><p>Reply: I don't think you understand the difference between market grading, and technical grading. Because if you did there would be no way you could even think that, let alone say it. </p><p><br /></p><p>I'm going to use caps to add my comments. I am not screaming - just adding some FRIENDLY clarifications as I understand them as I was there also as all this took place back then. </p><p><br /></p><p>Technical grading is a very simplified system - YES IT IS</p><p><br /></p><p>,and technical grading is what was used by everybody, prior to 1986 - ABSOLUTELY NOT. TRUE TECH. GRADING AS DEVELOPED/USED FOR THE INTERNAL RECORDS AT ANACS IN WASHINGTON ENDED IN 1975-6 WHEN ANACS MOVED TO CO. INSAB, THE FIRST TPGS, OPENED IN DC AND CONTINUED USING TRUE TECH GRADING. TECH BECAME BASTERDIZED IN CO.</p><p><br /></p><p>For one thing, with technical grading grading there were only 3 MS grades - MS60, MS65, and MS70. No other MS grades even existed. The same was true for Proof grades - PF60, PF65, and PF 70. It was a similar situation with circulated grades. There was AG3, G4, VG8, F12, VF20, VF30, XF40, XF45, AU50, and AU55. No other circulated grades existed. As you can see on that basis alone technical grading is very different from the grades we use today. AGAIN, MOSTLY FALSE INFORMATION. THERE WERE ONLY 2 UNC GRADES IN USE, 60 AND 65. MS-70 AND PF-70 DID NOT EXIST IN TECH GRADING. ONLY THE FOLLOWING SHELDON NUMBERS WERE USED, 1,2,3,4,6,8,10,12,15,20,30,40,50,60,AND 65 AS PUBLISHED EXCEPT 70. XF-45 AND AU-55 DID NOT EXIST. </p><p><br /></p><p>And how you determine those grades with technical grading is also very different. TRUE </p><p><br /></p><p>The only things considered (the criteria) to determine the technical grade are as follows, for MS coins - there can be no wear - TRUE;</p><p><br /></p><p>MS70 &65 both have to have full mint luster, MS60 may lack full mint luster NOT TRUE, AS YOU SAID BEFORE MS COINS [EVEN 60'S] MUST HAVE FULL,ORIGINAL MINT LUSTER.</p><p><br /></p><p>; planchet characteristics; bag marks (or contact marks if you prefer); scratches; edge bumps, nicks or dents - and that's it. Nothing else is taken into consideration in order to determine the technical grade of a coin. - CLOSE BUT NOT EXACTLY. </p><p>FOR EXAMPLE: TODAYS MS-64 MORGAN GEM WITH A FLAT EAR AND BREAST WAS TECH GRADED AS CHOICE UNC (MS-65 IN THE 1970'S) FLAT STRIKE. THE SAME GRADE ASSIGNED TO A GEM COIN W/STRONG STRIKE. UNCIRCULATED (MS-60) EXCESSIVE BAGMARKS DISCRIBED TODAYS 60 - 61 COIN, ETC.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>For circulated grades the amount of remaining detail is used. TRUE</p><p><br /></p><p>And anywhere from three quarters to traces of original mint luster must remain on coins from 55 down to XF40, respectively. GOOD ENOUGH</p><p><br /></p><p>That, is technical grading. That is all there is to it and there is nothing else. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO OVER THE SOMETHING ELSE. PERHAPS ANOTHER TIME I WILL POST SOME COINS AND TECH GRADE THEM. ANYWAY, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS COLLECTORS NEED TO LEARN MARKET (VALUE) GRADING WHICH IS MADE MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO KNOW THE COMMERCIAL COIN MARKET AND BE AN EXPERIENCED GRADER. TECH GRADING IS THE BEST SYSTEM TO TEACH NEWBIES. THEN THEY'LL NEAD TO LEARN THE MARKET AND TO BECOME MORE LIBERAL.</p><p><br /></p><p>Market grading however is quite different. All of the MS grades were added and many circulated grades were added. YEP, 25,35,45,58,61,62,64,66,67,68,69,70.</p><p><br /></p><p>And the grading criteria for MS coins were changed significantly. There can be no wear. NOPE, WE ALL KNOW MARKET GRADING ALLOWS WEAR.</p><p><br /></p><p>Regarding luster, the quality of the luster is judged and the higher the grade the higher that quality must be. ABSOLUTELY, AND EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO EYE APPEAL. NEWBIES LEARN THIS. LUSTER, EYE-APPEAL MORE IMPORTANT THAT THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF WEAR!</p><p><br /></p><p>Planchet characteristics are taken into account. How well centered the coin is, is taken into consideration. Bag marks (contact marks), their number, their size and/or severity, and their location is taken into consideration, and that varies for smaller sized coin and larger sized coins. YEP</p><p><br /></p><p>Scratches and their number, size, severity, and location are taken into consideration. Hairlines, which are different than scratches, their number, size, severity, and location are taken into consideration. YEP</p><p><br /></p><p>Eye appeal is taken into consideration and its quality judged. The lower the eye appeal, the lower the grade must be. YEP SEE WE MIGHT AGREE AFTER ALL.</p><p><br /></p><p>And please note - value is not even mentioned ! It plays no part whatsoever in determining the grade of a coin. ABSOLUTELY, VERIFIABLE, BAD INFO. COIN DEALERS, TPG'S I NEED YOUR SUPPORT ON THIS. OTHERWISE I HAVE A BUNCH OF AU-58 1884-S, 1895-0, AND 1892-S DOLLARS FOR SALE...LOL. </p><p><br /></p><p>With circulated grades, there were many more grades added. And much more, and more precise, descriptions of the remaining detail on a coin are used to determine the specific circulated grade of that coin.</p><p><br /></p><p>Those are the differences between market grading and technical grading. PLEASE SEE COMMENTS ABOVE.</p><p><br /></p><p> And as you can see they are very different. All of this information is taken directly from the ANA grading standards books. The 1st (1977) and 2nd edition ANA books are based on technical grading. The 3rd edition (1986), as well as all subsequent editions up to and including the 7th edition (2014) are based on market grading standards. THE ANA GRADING GUIDES ARE OBSOLETE FOR THE MOST PART. THEY NEED A REVISION TO GET UP TO SPEED; HOWEVER THE INTRO TO THOSE BOOKS IS REQUIRED READING FOR ALL COIN COLLECTORS.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>And Mike, once you read and understand all of the above, it should be pretty easy to understand why technical grading absolutely did not accurately describe the condition of a coin. And why market grading does accurately describe the condition of a coin. THANKS DOUQ, WINK, WINK. I DO ENJOY JOUSTING WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU PLAY NICE. </p><p><a href="https://www.cointalk.com/members/gdjmsp.112/" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/members/gdjmsp.112/">GDJMSP</a>, <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816">14 minutes ago</a> <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/report" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/report">Report</a> <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/best-answer" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/best-answer">Best Answer</a></p><p><a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816">#158</a> <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/like" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/like">Like</a> <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816">+ Quote</a> <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816">Reply</a>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Insider, post: 2300869, member: 24314"]Insider said: [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/goto/post?id=2300591#post-2300591']↑[/URL] Yes, market grading was the next step: however Market grading DOES NOT describe a coin's actual condition. Technical grading did accurately described a coin's condition. Reply: I don't think you understand the difference between market grading, and technical grading. Because if you did there would be no way you could even think that, let alone say it. I'm going to use caps to add my comments. I am not screaming - just adding some FRIENDLY clarifications as I understand them as I was there also as all this took place back then. Technical grading is a very simplified system - YES IT IS ,and technical grading is what was used by everybody, prior to 1986 - ABSOLUTELY NOT. TRUE TECH. GRADING AS DEVELOPED/USED FOR THE INTERNAL RECORDS AT ANACS IN WASHINGTON ENDED IN 1975-6 WHEN ANACS MOVED TO CO. INSAB, THE FIRST TPGS, OPENED IN DC AND CONTINUED USING TRUE TECH GRADING. TECH BECAME BASTERDIZED IN CO. For one thing, with technical grading grading there were only 3 MS grades - MS60, MS65, and MS70. No other MS grades even existed. The same was true for Proof grades - PF60, PF65, and PF 70. It was a similar situation with circulated grades. There was AG3, G4, VG8, F12, VF20, VF30, XF40, XF45, AU50, and AU55. No other circulated grades existed. As you can see on that basis alone technical grading is very different from the grades we use today. AGAIN, MOSTLY FALSE INFORMATION. THERE WERE ONLY 2 UNC GRADES IN USE, 60 AND 65. MS-70 AND PF-70 DID NOT EXIST IN TECH GRADING. ONLY THE FOLLOWING SHELDON NUMBERS WERE USED, 1,2,3,4,6,8,10,12,15,20,30,40,50,60,AND 65 AS PUBLISHED EXCEPT 70. XF-45 AND AU-55 DID NOT EXIST. And how you determine those grades with technical grading is also very different. TRUE The only things considered (the criteria) to determine the technical grade are as follows, for MS coins - there can be no wear - TRUE; MS70 &65 both have to have full mint luster, MS60 may lack full mint luster NOT TRUE, AS YOU SAID BEFORE MS COINS [EVEN 60'S] MUST HAVE FULL,ORIGINAL MINT LUSTER. ; planchet characteristics; bag marks (or contact marks if you prefer); scratches; edge bumps, nicks or dents - and that's it. Nothing else is taken into consideration in order to determine the technical grade of a coin. - CLOSE BUT NOT EXACTLY. FOR EXAMPLE: TODAYS MS-64 MORGAN GEM WITH A FLAT EAR AND BREAST WAS TECH GRADED AS CHOICE UNC (MS-65 IN THE 1970'S) FLAT STRIKE. THE SAME GRADE ASSIGNED TO A GEM COIN W/STRONG STRIKE. UNCIRCULATED (MS-60) EXCESSIVE BAGMARKS DISCRIBED TODAYS 60 - 61 COIN, ETC. For circulated grades the amount of remaining detail is used. TRUE And anywhere from three quarters to traces of original mint luster must remain on coins from 55 down to XF40, respectively. GOOD ENOUGH That, is technical grading. That is all there is to it and there is nothing else. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO OVER THE SOMETHING ELSE. PERHAPS ANOTHER TIME I WILL POST SOME COINS AND TECH GRADE THEM. ANYWAY, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS COLLECTORS NEED TO LEARN MARKET (VALUE) GRADING WHICH IS MADE MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO KNOW THE COMMERCIAL COIN MARKET AND BE AN EXPERIENCED GRADER. TECH GRADING IS THE BEST SYSTEM TO TEACH NEWBIES. THEN THEY'LL NEAD TO LEARN THE MARKET AND TO BECOME MORE LIBERAL. Market grading however is quite different. All of the MS grades were added and many circulated grades were added. YEP, 25,35,45,58,61,62,64,66,67,68,69,70. And the grading criteria for MS coins were changed significantly. There can be no wear. NOPE, WE ALL KNOW MARKET GRADING ALLOWS WEAR. Regarding luster, the quality of the luster is judged and the higher the grade the higher that quality must be. ABSOLUTELY, AND EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO EYE APPEAL. NEWBIES LEARN THIS. LUSTER, EYE-APPEAL MORE IMPORTANT THAT THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF WEAR! Planchet characteristics are taken into account. How well centered the coin is, is taken into consideration. Bag marks (contact marks), their number, their size and/or severity, and their location is taken into consideration, and that varies for smaller sized coin and larger sized coins. YEP Scratches and their number, size, severity, and location are taken into consideration. Hairlines, which are different than scratches, their number, size, severity, and location are taken into consideration. YEP Eye appeal is taken into consideration and its quality judged. The lower the eye appeal, the lower the grade must be. YEP SEE WE MIGHT AGREE AFTER ALL. And please note - value is not even mentioned ! It plays no part whatsoever in determining the grade of a coin. ABSOLUTELY, VERIFIABLE, BAD INFO. COIN DEALERS, TPG'S I NEED YOUR SUPPORT ON THIS. OTHERWISE I HAVE A BUNCH OF AU-58 1884-S, 1895-0, AND 1892-S DOLLARS FOR SALE...LOL. With circulated grades, there were many more grades added. And much more, and more precise, descriptions of the remaining detail on a coin are used to determine the specific circulated grade of that coin. Those are the differences between market grading and technical grading. PLEASE SEE COMMENTS ABOVE. And as you can see they are very different. All of this information is taken directly from the ANA grading standards books. The 1st (1977) and 2nd edition ANA books are based on technical grading. The 3rd edition (1986), as well as all subsequent editions up to and including the 7th edition (2014) are based on market grading standards. THE ANA GRADING GUIDES ARE OBSOLETE FOR THE MOST PART. THEY NEED A REVISION TO GET UP TO SPEED; HOWEVER THE INTRO TO THOSE BOOKS IS REQUIRED READING FOR ALL COIN COLLECTORS. And Mike, once you read and understand all of the above, it should be pretty easy to understand why technical grading absolutely did not accurately describe the condition of a coin. And why market grading does accurately describe the condition of a coin. THANKS DOUQ, WINK, WINK. I DO ENJOY JOUSTING WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU PLAY NICE. [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/members/gdjmsp.112/']GDJMSP[/URL], [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816']14 minutes ago[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/report']Report[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/best-answer']Best Answer[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/page-8#post-2300816']#158[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/posts/2300816/like']Like[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816']+ Quote[/URL] [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cabinet-friction-stacking-or-wear.41023/reply?quote=2300816']Reply[/URL][/QUOTE]
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