Cabinet Friction,stacking Or Wear

And more... There is a scratch under the ear. Note however that there are NO HAIRLINES visible at 15X. That tells me that this coin was not abrasively cleaned. This coin has "honest circulation." The wear points are a dull color.

Next is a very important concept. This is a very large and heavy coin. It can "absorb" more wear than a smaller coin (wear is wear) and still "appear" to be uncirculated. Put this much loss of detail on a $3 gold Princess or $2 1/2 Liberty (small size) and it would grade XF to an old timer (1950 - 1960) AU in modern time. However, in my experience more "room" is given to the $3 so it should "slab" higher due to the value. Add a Branch Mint coin to the example and things begin to get even more stupid as "strike" and "collector demand" must be factored into the grade assigned by the TPGS. Be thankful this string is ONLY about wear and cabinet friction.

 

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STILL WAITING for comments from our Albanian collector and any other members so they can continue...IN A FRIENDY MANNER...to educate me and others about what we see (as best we can tell from pictures) on coins

 

OK, I am completely confused by something regarding TPG's. It is continually referenced on this thread and others that TPG's, in order to give higher grades whenever possible, have blurred the lines with everything we have been discussing about cabinet, stacking friction etc. etc. This whole notion 100% contradicts what my entire class was told (reluctantly dragged out in an argument) by two, well seasoned PCGS graders at the ANA Summer Seminar. I do not remember the coin or the grade but here is what happened: At the Summer Seminar they basically cover the grade on the slabs, 20 or so at a time, and you have X amount of time to determine a grade on that coin before passing to the person next to you. After everyone has graded the group of coins, the instructors then each take a stab at the concealed grade (very often disagreeing with each other and/or the slabbed grade) before removing the tape and projecting the grade on a screen and then discussing the coin. Late in the week we were all getting fairly good at this little game of guess the grade when a coin went through that the vast majority of the class missed one grade high (lets just say we were arguing between 64 and 65) of the encapsulated PCGS grade. Things got a bit heated as the class and the instructors argued about the grade of the coin, everything we had learned screamed that this coin was a 65! I admit, this class was Grading U.S. Coins Session 1 but there was some well seasoned veterans in there, dealers, shop owners and a few that had completed all the grading classes and were taking them again. The more experienced class members were arguing the hardest and were not at all satisfied at the reasons given for a 64 grade! What was then said completely baffled me and has bugged me to this day. In a definitively frustrated and raised voice the instructor finally ended the argument when he said something very, very close to, 'Look, we can't '5' this coin, it's a $15,000 jump between grades.....look at a price guide every once in a while people!'
I'll just put on my helmet, crawl into my bunker and watch the action through my periscope!
Happy New Year!! Have fun guys!

 

Still waiting to find out what the posters on this thread think about the scratches on the Israel coin in post 297? Let's pretend it is a Morgan dollar Same thing...I didn't

 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH COMMERCIAL/MARKET/TPGS GRADING. If I were you. I should send this post EXACTLY as written to CW Commentary and NN Viewpoint. It will stir up a good pack of letters to the Editor if printed.

If I were teaching, I should not end the discussion but explain the "Facts of the Market" to all of you. "Look guys, we are all correct. This is an MS-65 but coins like this with a huge price jump are GRADED DIFFERENTLY...here is the how and the why... Now we have some happy, informed students who learned something and are not confused.

That's why the original TECHNICAL grading was so easy to teach. Most of the students graded the coin correctly at MS-65 because it was an MS-65! That's what you were taught. You need to be a TPG/SAVY coin dealer to know about the price jump. Most of us here will never make the cut. I've been in this business as a collector since the late 60's and I cannot/will never/and do not have the time to learn "Market/TPGS" grading. Wish I could/did because there is $15,000 on the table to be made on that coin as standards loosen or the "right" person sends it in X # of times (I have only heard these things - cannot confirm). I talk to the TPG's whenever I can and have taken courses as you have done. I argue with them about technical/commercial; wear/stacking/cabinet friction all the time and learn from it.

Take a look at the gray sheet for yourself. Some dollars go from $$$ or $$$$ to $$,$$$$ at the 4 - 5 line. To get the 65, the coin needs to be something the TPG's AND Finalizer wants for their collection...LOL.

What timing. This Tuesday at a coin shop the owner showed me three slabbed coins. One was graded 64, the other (?) PL and one 63 DMPL. Grade not important here. EVERY ONE was off in our opinion. The first (a better date) was PL yet not graded PL (can you say PRICE JUMP). BOTH other coins were DMPL with exactly the same mirror on both sides! Can you say PRICE JUMP again. The dealer understands "market" grading. That's why he sent them in hoping they would $$$GRADE$$$!

Thanks for sharing this...I'm printing it out for my grading article files.

 

Ok, I have spent years trying to figure the logic of what I posted above regarding what happened at the Summer Seminar. To confuse me even more, most of what I have read in CW and here on CT is the exact opposite of what I heard back then. I also recently spoke with a longtime dealer who has successfully played the ‘crack out’ game for many years. He was very clear on the fact that the Grey Sheet and the price jumps between grades was one of his main determining factors in what he sends in. He stated that it was much easier to get a coin raised a grade if the price increase was a few hundred dollars than it was to if the increase was in the many thousands. He basically said, ”You give me a coin AND a price guide and I’ll tell you what your chances are.”
Now in my uneducated opinion here is what I believe is going on and why I am hearing two completely different opinions, #1). The TPG do NOT WANT to raise the grade if the price jump is too large. And #2) The TPG’s WANT higher grades and coin prices and will do whatever they can to blur the grading lines to do so.
So #1 (The TPG do NOT WANT to raise the grade if the price jump is too large.) As to their guarantee policy: If PCGS over grades a coin they are responsible to buy it back at the over graded price….If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed or non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade…. Not that big of a deal at a few hundred dollars but maybe a little different at $15,000 $30,000-$100,000 or more.
Now #2. (The TPG’s WANT higher grades and coin prices and will do whatever they can to blur the grading lines in order to do so). News worthy coins, pedigreed, public interest etc are well worth the risk of over grading as they bring multi millions of dollars in free advertising. The risk to reward is much different between pushing a coin from Hank the mechanic’s great uncle Cletus’s collection from 55 to MS than it is to do the same with an Eliasburg Sr. or Norweb pedigree (CW March 2013 ‘Pedigrees That Live Forever’ to see how often these coins get bumped up). The TPG has nothing to 'gain' by risking a $50,000 or $100,000 bump with Cletus’s coin but when Norweb’s coin hits the blocks it makes news and is pictured with the TPG label shining brightly in every picture. Who could even begin to estimate the value in free advertising and name recognition PCGS received from the Saddle Ridge Hoard alone. Any coin from that hoard that may come back someday as over graded will have already paid for itself many, many times over. Collectors instantly pay high premiums on pedigreed or historic coins but I am sure the TPG (as I read it) is in no way responsible for that inflated pedigree price only the book price of the coin, determined of course by ‘themselves’. Then they can just resell the said coin at the pedigreed price, even if at a lower grade.... it's a TPG no lose situation. Thus my take on why TPG's are often so eager to upgrade some coins and seemingly very reluctant to upgrade others. Just thought I would throw one more grenade...back to the bunker.

 

Unfortunately/fortunately I cannot disagree with most of this either

IMO #1 is correct and you understand that perfectly.

I'm going to read #2 now and comment in red above as I read...
hopefully others will reply BUT I AM STILL WAITING on the other ? about the Albanian coin. What's wrong you two...you had a lot to say in the beginning.