Byzantine-Arab Follis Help!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Nathan F, Jan 24, 2022.

  1. Nathan F

    Nathan F Well-Known Member

    24AFA4A9-FFBE-47A4-843F-5A8A248192E8.jpeg ABD05A9C-1C54-4D66-9AFC-D6DC1143DAC6.jpeg 028EF840-556B-4D3D-B1B6-754194DF1A27.jpeg I recently acquired my first Byzantine-Arab follis and I’m stumped on identification. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
     
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  3. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    I don't think it's an Arab imitation but an official Byzantine follis of Heraclius, either double-struck or struck over an earlier coin.
     
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  4. Nathan F

    Nathan F Well-Known Member

    Do you think it's still identifiable? I'm pretty out of my limit in early Byzantine, and overstruck follis' is a tough place to learn.
     
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  5. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    I can cheerfully second @dltsrq. Nothing here is suggesting Arab-Byzantine; the prototypes really are as crude as this. Same for Heraclius, with the Santa Claus beard.
     
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  6. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    Would be similar to this one. The year is obliterated on yours by the overstrike.
    b210.jpg
    Heraclius
    Mint: Constantinople
    630 to 631 AD
    AE Follis
    Obvs: No legend. Heraclius and Heraclius Constantine standing. Cross between them
    Revs: Large M, ANNO to left. X X I right, CON below.
    21x28mm, 3.9g
    Ref: Sear 810
     
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  7. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

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  8. Nathan F

    Nathan F Well-Known Member

    Ok thanks, I’ll take a look! Not to ask a dumb question but is there any chance of identifying the host coin?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
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  9. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Absolutely; I have no doubt. ...Just by someone better than me!!!
    (Edit: ) Not, Not a dumb question. The only dumb questions are the ones that someone had any rational basis to already know the answer to.
     
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  10. Nathan F

    Nathan F Well-Known Member

    It seems to me that the bottom half of an obverse design that can be seen on the reverse is the key. Hopefully that looks familiar to someone!
     
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  11. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    See? For someone who doesn't do lots of early Byzantine (Teacher, I raise my hand), it's looking as if you're seriously homing in. ...Now I'm starting to wonder if this might be an overstrike on an earlier variant of the same type (as in Sear /Wildwinds). Since dual standing figures are not at all typical of Byzantine folles, early or late, the range of possibilities is narrower than one might anticipate.
    (Edit: ) Sorry if you were all the way here already. Whatever you collect more than early Byzantine, it gave you some good eyes.
     
  12. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    Is Sear 806 the undertype?
     
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  13. robinjojo

    robinjojo Supporter! Supporter

    Here's a Sassanian imitation follis of Heraclius, I believe, 610-629, during the war between the Persian and the Byzantine empires, early in Heraclius' reign. The fabric of the obverse, with its extremely crude die work, even cruder than Byzantine die work for that period, stands out. The reverse is fairly close to that of a Byzantine follis, but the lettering, particularly for "CON" is very irregular, ending with a stick figure "N".

    7.9 grams

    D-Camera Byzantine-Sassanian follis imitation Heraclius 610-629 7.9g Roma 88 1736 gl  11-17-21.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
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  14. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Thanks, @robinjojo, for giving us an example that so cogently, visually demonstrates the contrast between the two series, first and second. It's easy to imagine the dealer who sold @Nathan F's example equating the crudity of the strike with its being Arab-Byzantine. ...Just, Not So Fast.
     
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  15. robinjojo

    robinjojo Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you.

    I am still learning; these crude coins are a challenge! Imitations are a fascinating, and often little understood branch of ancients to collect.
     
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  16. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Here are some examples of Arab imitations of the type. The 1st is from the pseudo-Byzantine series, straight-forward Syrian copies of the prototype but usually blundered. The 2nd is from the bilingual series, minted after some degree of organization was in place. The mint name is written in both Greek and Arabic: Heliopolis/ Ba'albakk. The 3rd is from Dimashq (Damascus), Arabic only.

    thumb00198.jpg arabbyz51.jpg AE_Dima_q.jpg
     
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  17. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Dang, @robinjojo and @dltsrq, this is Great. I for one am clueless about Byzantine folles as early as this, and only more profoundly so about the Arab-Byzantine series. You're both doing a serious public service!
     
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  18. Nathan F

    Nathan F Well-Known Member

    Thanks so much for everyone’s help, I think I can now confidently do the attributions!
     
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  19. robinjojo

    robinjojo Supporter! Supporter

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