Buying and Selling ethical question...

If it tests as fine gold and has the correct weight, specific gravity, and ring, I can't see why the dealer shouldn't pay at least melt value for it (assuming they buy non-numismatic gold at all).

 

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Like I said I don't condone anyone that attempts to perpetrate a fraud. But I believe in order to have signs to look for you need to know how frauds are committed. And that is my intent. All I know is when I received my two certified first strike Silver dollars. First thing I did was hit the slab holders with a UV light and the second was put them under my stereo microscope to check the seals. I do not know about you but I personally try to find out how coin frauds are committed in order to not become a victim.And as far as the first post goes, all those coins are my coins. I was just attempting to show a lot of holders are designed to open for personal inspection of that coin. And to purchase a coin in any of those holders that are designed to be open. How stupid it is for someone to say I will not accept it back if you take it out of that holder.Especially a 2 x 2 clear flap.
And as far is resealing a encapsulated coin I have Read sometimes it is done. So you need to keep an eye out for them.USMC60

 

You are misinterpreting what I said twice, I am not accusing you of anything or disagreeing with what your message is.

All I am saying is that people that read your 1st post I quoted either now or sometime in the future might interpret that you can use this glue with no effect on the coin in the slab. Their intentions may be completely innocent and the result might be a damaged coin.

 

And like I said I totally agree with what you were saying. That's why made the point to say that individuals do not care if it damages the coins are not. And I was always informed that if you have a slab coin that needs to be resealed it is always best to send it back to the service that sealed the coin. And of course they world charge you a re-examine fee and a new holder fee. And if you're wondering what any kind of chemicals can do to coin I'm sure there's plenty of threads on CT that would help on that.Maybe I should asked you to go back and clarified never use this anywhere near coins. Concerning the rapidfix. Shall we say this boat has sailed and move on.USMC60

 

And how stupid, after numerous clear explanations, is it to still fail to understand why? I can only assume that, if you were to sell one of the shown coins and are perfectly fine with the supposed buyer removing them for examination, you would also have no problem accepting the return of they dropped or otherwise damaged it? Must be because you can't have it both ways.

Sincerely,

A forum "Demon"

 

In that hypothetical simply because it would be a return. Returns are never anything more then the purchase price. Obviously he would be better off just selling the piece for melt but no seller has any obligation to refund more then the purchase price for a return unless they advertise terms that would require them to do so.

 

I'm sorry, Paul, but I must disagree. An authenticity guarantee doesn't include future increases in value, collectible or content. On the flipside nor does it include losses, meaning that, as an example, if a coin was purchased for $100 and now straight retails at $50, the dealer still refunds the price originally paid.

Now if the individual dealer in Green's example wished to buy it as scrap in addition or as part of the refund, that's a different story.

 

Here is where were going to disagree. This is Burger King have it your way if I purchase a coin I'm going to examine it. Just like a photo coin holders can cause distortion in a coins appearance. I've always been a firm believer, to get the best perspective of a coin enclosed will just not get it. I also believe in you break it you bought it. So any damage that occurs while you have the coin it's okay because you now own that coin. And do not have the right to send it back. You know I find it also very hard to way a coin that's in a holder or to measure its diameter, in a holder.I believe those are two prime factors in determining if a coin is a fake.Kinda hard to do in a holder.And personally if someone wants to sell me a coin and has an objection to me wanting to examine the coin for its authenticity. I will generally tell them that I'm not interested and move on.And tell me if you find a company that will authenticate a coin while it is encapsulated please let me know and leave me the link.

 

Okay, let's examine the situation more carefully. What happens if the dealer is only willing to refund the original purchase price of $86? In that case, the dealer made money on the coin at the original purchase price, and, since its melt value is around $600 now, is going to make a further $500. Meanwhile, our collector is out the coin, and the paltry refund of $86 after inflation means he's effectively taking a net loss of at least $200, and probably gets left with a bad taste in his mouth from the whole deal.

If the dealer buys the coin back as scrap, then the dealer made money on the original sale in the 70s, and isn't going to lose money buying it back as scrap. Our collector is still out the coin, but he's made a few hundred on the bullion value. Since neither the collector nor the dealer knew the coin was fake until it was sent to the grading service, it's probably a good fake, and there's no love lost because the dealer failed to recognize it as such.

There's another option, too. The dealer could say "I intended to sell you an authentic $10 Liberty, and I'm going to make sure you get one." In that case, the dealer trades an authentic $10 Liberty of the same date, mint, and grade for the fake. If we're talking about a common date coin with not a lot of numismatic premium, the collector ends up with the coin, and the dealer probably ends up taking a small loss equal to the difference between the numismatic and bullion values of the coin, but gets a ton of goodwill in return.

Of these options, as both the dealer and the collector, I would prefer either option 2 or option 3. Option 2 leaves us both about even, financially speaking, and doesn't damage the relationship. Option 3 is the dealer going above and beyond, and is probably the option he should choose if the loss he'll take isn't excessive, simply because it makes the collector whole and creates a ton of goodwill.

 

First, with Green's stated example, no one in their right mind would return it as a counterfeit at the original price, but this is why I added that it's up to the individual dealer if he wishes to "buy as scrap as part of or in addition to the (original) refund". It is up to the dealer what he wishes to do, but the fact stands that his responsibility under the guarantee does not stretch beyond the original amount paid, period, but again this does not mean he will not or cannot go above and beyond it. In fact I would also argue that doing so is good business, but this doesn't change what the guarantee means or what his responsibilities are under it. Really, what we're talking about are two connected yet very separate issues.

Again, we could switch this around and instead of in the 70's, let's say Green made this purchase in 2011 at gold's high point. This board would erupt in furor at the mere thought of a dealer willing only to buy back at today's scrap prices, and rightfully so, but it works both ways. Just as it's not his responsibility to refund at today's value simply because it's significantly higher than at the time of purchase, he also cannot rightly expect to refund at today's lower prices if the original price paid was higher.

 

A guarantee of authenticity is effectively an insurance policy indemnifying the collector against the possible purchase of a counterfeit coin. If you offer an insurance policy, you should charge a premium for it, but you should also be prepared to pay out. If a dealer sold a common date $10 Liberty at the 2011 peak of ~$1900 an oz, the coin would probably sell for $900-1000 or so at that time, so that would be the insured value. In the original scenario, the insured value is lower than the scrap value, which is why the dealer ought to buy it back at scrap value. I see no inconsistency.

 

The counterfeit issue has already been discussed and has been made abundantly clear, by not only myself but others as well. The removal policy does not stand if a coin, sold as genuine, turns out to be proven counterfeit. This is the one absolute exception with any dealer worth his salt, and for all sense and purposes, is a non-issue.

As for the rest, if you can understand the concept of "you break it you buy it", you shouldn't have any trouble understanding why this policy exists. No one is saying coins cannot be removed from their holders for examination. This is a buyer's choice, but there are conditions of said choice, and one is that the coin may not be returnable once removed. This too is not an absolute policy; a coin removed may very well be accepted as a return by a dealer with this policy depending on the coin/type and if he's confident in its condition, but buyers must be aware that their right to return can be compromised by their CHOICE to remove.

As said earlier, there's one very easy way around this, but it rests upon the collector's shoulders to initiate, and that's simply opening their mouth and asking for permission. Why this is so hard for some to understand I do not know, but it's a very, very simple concept. Unfortunately, too many collectors are either too worried they might lose their deal, or set off alarms, or are simply too self centered to do the obvious. Again, it's a CHOICE to remove a coin from its holder, just as its a CHOICE to avoid discussing this with the dealer beforehand. If you do not wish to deal with someone with such a policy, this too is your CHOICE, but if you CHOOSE to purchase from him and ignore said policy, the only one you've to blame if he denies the return is yourself, and is as simple as that.

 

Look I'm not in the service anymore nor am I incarcerated. I don't need anyone's permission to use the head anymore. And another question how many coins have you damaged accidentally?. I don't know about you but I was taught from the very beginning of collecting coins how to properly handle them. And I'm sure you have learned the same. And if that's a position you want to take I have some coins I want to sell you in holders and you cannot take them out of the holders. If you do you void your return. So any damage that the holders are concealing. You will not know if the damage is there unless you can inspect the coin. Usually if someone is impairing your ability to verify a coin most likely there is something wrong. I avoid dealing with individuals like this. I'd rather they be honest and up front and say a coin is being sold as is no returns. Plain and simple and to the point. Something fishy is when they say yes you can return it if it's in the original packaging. Basically leaving you know options. Like I said if you like buying coins without being able to examine them, I have a bunch I can put in holders and offer them to you for sale but you can't open them to examine them. Take for in substance a prominent bullion sales company on TV. They have a return policy if you return the coins to them in the original packaging. Where they have you is in order to look at your coins you have to take them out of the packaging thus voiding your return.Let's say I buy a coin from you and say it's in an airtight holder. And you offer a return policy. You will except that coin back as long as it's in an airtight holder. If you expect me to asked your permission to take this coin out of the airtight holder to examine it. You're in fantasyland,Bottom line all collectors be very aware of what you're doing. Learn as much information before purchasing. Return policies do not always work in your favor. In the past have been scammed by many professionals. Try to learn from that experience. Ripped off once on a coin deal. Now if I sell you a coin, before I package that coin up I have taken several photos of identifying marks on that coin and I even throw a nonvisible tag on that coin. And I find it's very easy to make a small go Pro video of packaging that particular coin along with identification number on that package.I make it extremely hard for someone to send me back a coin I did not sell them. They get their money back plus the coin that I sold them and they send me back a $.25 coin. And if you're not aware it's called the switch..

 

If you are returning it for a refund, no you get the $86. If you are selling it back as a counterfeit for the gold value then yes.

 

Okay, so let's call it an "insurance policy", but let's also clarify exactly what this free policy covers... the original purchase price IF the coin is ever discovered to be counterfeit. Did Green buy, or was the dealer even offering, additional insurance to cover possible gains? Not in his example he didn't, which means we're back to square one and you invalidated your own point, that is unless it's somehow now the dealer's fault for not charging for or even knowing he was doing so.

Never, in just short of 25 years involvement in this hobby as a non-collector have I ever... ever known anyone short of shysters to guarantee returns in any way, shape, or form. The concept not only ludicrous but is also from practical, and you know this as well as I do. The dealer is very simply standing behind what he sells and what he believes to be true (authenticity) at the price paid. Nothing more and most certainly nothing less.

Again, Paul; any dealer worth his salt would almost certainly do as you said and go above and beyond simply to help right a wrong, but this doesn't mean it's their responsibility, and this is key. Going above and beyond is just good business; I wholeheartedly agree, especially because we both know no one in their right mind would ever make such a return (for the original price paid) in the first place.

 

I see you changed your avatar, Jim. How old is your grandfather?

Chris