Buying and Selling ethical question...

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And so says the auctioneer, as well.

 

Why does not the same apply to a bank that removes $20 from my account and gives me a fake $20 bill?

I understand what you're saying, but I can't tease out a material difference in the fact patterns.

 

The problem with this is what Books touched on, and that's THE SWITCH.
Once you take it out of the holder, the dealer will not take it back if it is counterfeit, because he will say you switched the real coin, for the fake. And you will not win that in court.

 

Of course, sometimes the holder conceals the detail that proves it's a fake, hence a Catch-22. You can't very well send it to a TPGS and tell them "Joe's Coin Company says it can't come out of the holder it's in, which by the way is counter to your submission standards".

 

Well hurry up and get some that are up to my standards

 

In the case originally posted, was there a dispute over authenticity? And was there anything at all in writing on a website or an invoice that suggests the "implied contract?" If a counterfeit dispute exists, that should, assuming one can prove that the coin was the exact coin purchased, override other concerns, unless something in writing existed prior to the sale. Without knowing the details - and the original poster is probably being wisely cautious - it's really hard to say. Many dealers state clearly on their websites that they will refund coins later deemed as fakes, though the buyer likely has some burden of proof to overcome depending on certain characteristics of the sale (time elapsed since purchase, etc.). I wouldn't buy anything of moderate to great value from a dealer that didn't make that statement explicitly somewhere. If the coin was identified as counterfeit and the dealer just said "too bad, you already opened the flip," and no other mitigating factors exist, then I at least wouldn't work with that dealer again and at most would try to obtain a refund. Whether the refund would actually happen also depends on many factors, but my guess is that a refund is never guaranteed.

 

This is the one exception and, perhaps, something I should've touched on in previous posts. Laws aside, any, and I do mean any, dealer worth one's time should have an absolute lifetime return policy on any coin discovered to be counterfeit. Not simply claimed to be so, but proven to be fake.

That said, you hit on one of the unfortunate problems with such a policy, and that is if the coin is, in fact, the same one originally sold. This may be less of an issue soon after the sale, but that's not always going to be the case with a lifetime guarantee. In such case it's up to the dealer how he wishes to handle it, and unless he's absolutely certain, beyond even the slightest doubt, the coin is the one originally sold, it may be easier to simply eat the return in the name of good business, especially if a solid customer.

Today's world of easy digital imaging is different than in years past as most dealers can, if they so choose, allow themselves to have a photo record of all sales, or at least those above a certain dollar amount. This can alleviate the problem of switching and lying buyers, but is, of course, a lot of work for something that shouldn't be too great of a concern for a competent dealer.

 

One can't contract on an illegal subject matter, such agreements are "void ab initio" (i.e., from the get go).

 

I agree that once a coin is altered from its originally purchased state (i.e., removed from its original holder) a whole slew of questions arise. Exceptions always exist, but, putting myself in a dealer's shoes, I can completely understand why a dealer would greatly suspect anything that was opened prior to asking for a refund.

What seems sticky to me is when a coin can only be deemed counterfeit by removing it from its holder - especially if a dealer explicitly states that counterfeits will be refunded. Someone buys a coin with that agreement in mind, receives the coin and then has it authenticated by an expert (or a TPG company), which may necessitate its removal from the original holder. The expert then claims it's a counterfeit and the purchaser, whose only route to authenticity was removing the holder, is now stuck.

 

I had this happen one time on Ebay, the coin was a seated quarter and it was counterfeit. In fact it didn't even have the correct weight which was a dead give away among other things. The seller tried to argue that since I removed it from the 2x2 that I owned it regardless. I didn't agree and Ebay didn't agree and I sent the coin back and was refunded. Although I had to deal with Ebay who apparently had to force the seller to refund me as they still didn't do so like 4 days after the coin was delivered back to them. A seller should stand behind their products, I could see a difference however if someone bought a slabbed coin and broke that out trying for a regrade, etc and then tried to return it. Or simply decided they didn't like a coin they received but removed it from the holder it came in and then tried to return it.

 

Unless I've somehow misunderstood you, sir; you seem to be missing the point. In the case of where a coin is later determined, beyond any and all doubt, of being counterfeit, the fact it's been removed from its original holder no longer matters. The voiding any return privilege once removed from a holder only applies and only applies to genuine coins.

 

And this is unfortunate baggage that comes when dealing with non professionals. eBay is essentially the world's larger yardsale/fleamarket, so it must be understood that just because one is selling coins (or whatever), this doesn't make them "dealer" (who, by my definition, offer "value" to their customers beyond the coin itself) but a simple seller. However, when one decides to play dealer, be it Craigslist, eBay, or wherever, or simply chooses to sell in a retail environment, they now rightfully shoulder the responsibilities that an actual dealer does, and this includes standing behind the authenticity of their wares.

That said, I know you understand this, sir, but it's pretty clear that many do not. All too often we see, on this very board, people who seem to assume the eBay schmo they bought their coin from is a "dealer". This type of thought, especially when something goes wrong or the buyer isn't pleased (even if their own fault) only helps to further the most regrettable notion that coin dealers are all shysters and cannot be trusted. The same people who wouldn't buy jewelry for some dude in a trench coat standing on a street corner for obvious reasons, all too often seem to think that doing the equivalent with coins is perfectly safe and acceptable. It's not.

 

I only have this question. Hypothetically say I bought all these coins from you. And you have a return policy. You will take all coins back within seven day. If in original packaging.Say the first day I receive the coins from you. I want to examine them. And the next day I email you back that I want to return coins not satisfied. So I get the coins ready to mail back. Now I am returning them back in the same condition I receive them in.Should I get my money back.?

 

I don't think I'm missing the point, just seeking clarification. If what you say is true and will stand (as it seems to have in the Ebay case mentioned above), then I'm okay. It is unfortunate that some buyers may have to fight for refunds in such cases, but I'm glad that Ebay backed the buyer up. If a similar case arose with a direct coin store purchase and the dealer didn't budge, the buyer may have to resort to small claims court or some such other avenue.

 

I would say yes - unless you shared those photos with the seller.

 

Only the first photo. I am not going to admit to him that they were opened and examined. The first photo is just a visual photo of the coins when I received them. The point I was trying to make is how is someone going to know if you took a coin out of a 2 x 2 flap. Even if it's stapled.?