Buying Ancients, some questions

Ok, so a couple weekends ago I bought my first ancient. Which I really stumbled upon. The dealer that sold it to me is 3 hours away. So while returning to him will be rare. However not without the realm of possibility as I do get up to that area a few times a year. However with winter setting in it probably won't be until spring.

I have done a lot more research on them, I have done some more planning, and kind of have a few areas of interest. I have been reading a lot both online and in the books you all have recommended. I have been looking at Vcoin and CNG. I have also started looking at Sixbid and Numisbid. I am pretty much ignoring ebay, not knowing a lot about fakes and so on as I would rather put my trust in buying from reputable auction houses, dealers, etc. Not saying ebay is bad, I just am not as comfortable there.

Ok, so armed with a list of ancient coins I kind of would like to have. Nothing overly expensive $30-$150 some even less.

How do you go about purchasing ancients? This is where I am kind of getting overwhelmed. I went to a local coin show this weekend. A smaller one, there was not an ancient to be found. This is not unexpected though. However now with Ancients on my radar it was kind of like going out to eat and topping off the meal with root beer float only to find they are out of root beer. There is a much larger coin show in a couple weeks near me. However, I am not expecting much in the way of ancients to be there.

Looking through post I notice many of you purchase through auctions, is this the preferred way to get ancients? While in the US do you stick primarily to US only Auctions?

Do you go with European Auctions? If so how does this work? Take for example WAG Online, there are actually 5 items on there I would love to bid on. Well the whole site is in German. So using a lot of google translate trying to make out the requirements. Ok there seems to be a 17% charge for the buyer, which is about normal. However, paying them seems to be an issue. They do not take credit cards, they do not take paypal, they do not take bitcoin, they do not take foreign checks. This seems to be pretty common in foreign auctions from what I have seen even on English sites. So how do you pay for the auction? Then, they also say they require you to get customs paperwork and pay export fees on top of shipping? Shipping I expected to pay for, what customs paperwork is needed, export fees?? I have had relatives and friends in the past be in foreign countries. I have had to ship them items before. Aside from filling out customs paperwork I have never had to do anything other than that. I have also purchased items online from stores in Europe, not auction houses, things just arrive at my house in a few weeks. No extra paperwork or anything needed, sure shipping is more, I expect that. So I am kind of confused as to these requirements. Can someone explain them?

The reason I was looking at the European auctions is the items I am looking to bid on seem much more abundant there. One of the items I am looking at there is only one on CNG, where there are about 20 in Europe. The one on CNG is about 3 times the price. So buying from Europe and paying extra in shipping makes financial sense. Plus a better selection.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Whether or not you need paperwork depends on the coin type. There are several laws known as MOUs that make it difficult to import certain types without proof of provenance or an export certificate from Italy, for instance early Italian cast coinage and pre-denarius Roman struck coinage.

As far as payment that depends on the auction house. I'd contact them and ask - even if the site is in a foreign language they most likely have at least one employee fluent in English in my experience.

My two cents on auctions: CNG is one of the best in the US. Their hammer prices are sometimes higher than equivalent coins outside the US but in my experience they are more honest and more likely to report things like tooling and smoothing than just about any other auction house. To me they're worth the extra I might pay in most cases.

 

You never told us what you are seeking. The answers depend a lot on whether you want $30 coins or $3000 coins (there are many cheaper and more than those numbers). I live in the US and consider the European auctions more trouble than they are worth but I am happy with lesser coins in the $30 to $300 range which are easy to find. Of course I live in Virginia where I have two more good shows this year and I have been shopping eBay for almost 20 years and know several trustworthy dealers that do business there. I have plenty of selection to fill my desires (not necessarily yours). There are crooked Europeans selling fakes and doctored coins as well as museum grade treasures; there are professional dealers that know a lot and those that know nothing. I will say if you are seeing something in a European Auction for 1/3 the CNG price, you may be missing something on one coin or the other. It is all a matter of details and some details really do matter.

If you are prepared to spend something well over $10,000 a year and seek only a few of the finest coins, you might be well advised to employ a dealer to represent you in bidding in 'Big Dog' sales. If your budget is under that and you want to do it yourself, I'd start domestic and learn the ropes in a language you can read buying from sellers who might charge a little for hand holding service but can guide you toward purchases that will make you happy. Here on CT, we have people in all brackets with a wide range of opinions. Pay attention to what they post, what they say and what they pay (read prices realized not estimates on sales). You will find a place you feel at ease.

 

Bidding in foreign auctions can be nerve-wracking, especially when the auction is posted in a language you don't speak. I took a quick look at Numisbids and on that site WAG's Terms of Sale are in English. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=1681

I haven't bid in WAG and can't address your specific questions but I have encountered problems with payment a time or two. One auction house required a wire transfer. I didn't figure that out ahead of time and the coin I bought was modestly priced (hammer less than $300). My bank charges $50 for a wire transfer, plus the receiving bank charges a fee... plus buyer's premium, currency conversion, shipping... all of those extra fees meant I grossly overpaid for the coin and should not have bid.

Try writing the auction house about methods of payment. Sometimes when asked they will allow payment by credit card or PayPal. As you probably would assume, most auction houses charge an extra fee for payment by credit card or PayPal (~3-4%).

As for export paperwork, the few times that was an issue for me the auction house took care of it without charge, but they also stated in the Terms that they did the paperwork.

I've also seen auctions where individual lots are specifically excluded from US bidders because of export issues.

Unless there is some rare coin I can't hope to find elsewhere, when faced with an unfamiliar auction house, confusing Terms of Sale, confusing export issues, etc, I simply don't bid with them. It's not worth the stress when so many coins are available without such hassles.

 

Yeah but wouldn't the auction house supply that paperwork? The way they made it sound was that the buyer had to obtain the paperwork, or is this an additional cost from the auction house?

Oh I would agree, reading some of the other posts, however, the lack of selection was what I noticed. Which I guess could be both good and bad. You are getting great coins. However, some of the coins I was looking at there seems to be the one. Where on some of the other sites there seems to be various ones if differing quality, mints, etc.

 

You've gotta check their terms or contact them. Generally if the auction house is in Italy they will get the Italian paperwork for you, but if for instance they're based in Britain and they don't list that the coin comes with the Italian export certificate or prior provenance, they likely won't get this paperwork for you and you risk it being confiscated by customs.

It really depends on the type of coins you're looking for though. Roman Imperial coins don't fall under these MOUs at all, but certain provincial, colonial and very early Republican coins do. Similarly, some Greek coins, for instance those of the island of Cyprus, fall under these laws and others don't.

 

Ok I was going to message @dougsmit and @TIF privately, because well I was going to post some links to some specific auctions. However, I realize, since the auctions end at the end of the week, I wouldn't probably get this sorted out in time so it doesn't matter. Picking your guys brains about this would be much better.

Giving you some examples of what I am looking at and why.

So my first Ancient is Julian II, so i am looking at improving him and acquiring some more of him, there are the ones at his time of Ceasar.

So looking in Europe, I see several, I see all different mints, different busts.
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?searchall=Julian II&p=searchall
I really, really like this one
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1689&lot=2882

at CNG just one single Julian right now.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=320976

Also, I used to be a serious practitioner of Kendo, which is the art of the Samurai, age and arthritis stopped me. So I would like to start a collection of Chinese, Japanese coins from this time, it has kind of always been on my radar to want to do so why not now. These are not overly ancient, as these are going to be 800 A.D. to 1800 AD however this is where the lots at WAG came in.

This is a large amount of coins, yeah, lower quality, but would gets me really started right in the middle of Sengoku period. This would also give me a lot to do and keep me busy researching a lot more about these coins and timeline.
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1681&lot=101
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1681&lot=102
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1681&lot=103
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1681&lot=104

Which on CNG, I can only find 1 coin.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=321047

So just the breadth of choices is what led me to ask about buying from Europe. It just that in what I am currently looking for, I do not see in the US.

 

Vcoins has many listings of Julian II coins, some from US dealers, some from European dealers.

https://www.vcoins.com/en/Default.aspx

 

Well, Chinese coins are not that popular in the US which is why you wont find much if any in the auctions. Also, they are too cheap for that venue unless in big groups. Retail can be from $1 to $20 for the most common, Fine to VF. I have been selling Chinese coins for nearly 30 years, so if you need help (or a place to buy) I will give my opinions. If I cant sell you what you want, I can tell you where to go to get them. Just send me a private message.

 

By the way, the CNG example, I gave that to Tom nearly 30 years ago as a gift. It's nice to see he kept it all those years. He had wide interests!

 

Here is a list of ancient-coin sellers (many not full-time dealers) I compiled.

http://augustusmath.hypermart.net/dealers.html

Some are major. Many are minor. Some are so minor they rarely add anything to their small list of offerings.

I keep track of fakesellers and have not listed any sites known to sell fakes. There are too many sellers of good coins to risk buying from dealers who sell occasional fakes.

eBay fakesellers are listed in various places. Here is one:

http://augustusmath.hypermart.net/fakesellers.html

Some of the listed eBayers also have some genuine coins for sale, but it is common for many low-grade coins to be genuine and the "nice" ones to be fakes. I recommend you do not buy from eBay sellers on that list.

It takes a lot of time to go through my list of fixed-price sellers above. But, you will learn a lot and perhaps find some coins you like.

 

The standard payment in Europe is by bankaccount , the socalled IBAN transfer
NL 40 RABO 0123456789 = country - areacode bank - name of your bank - 10 digit bankaccount number. Without such an IBAN number bankaccount its problematic to pay for your stuff.

The second problem is the redtape , the export declaretion for US customs.

Your third problem is perhaps the foreign language.

shipping time from Europe to the US is another.

I live in the Netherlands and buy lots of coins in US auctions and Vcoins.

I would strongly advice you to stick with US sellers at this moment in time.

 

Ken is going to be your man for the Chinese coins. There are another couple serious ancient Chinese coin collectors that frequent this forum but their user names escape me.

 

I've read @dougsmit & @TIF replies and skimmed through the rest.
They both make great statements.
But like Doug said read the posts here on CT. Listen if you will, members myself included say were we shop and buy most of our goodies. You don't have to involve yourself with every post but if you'll take the time to read, damn you can learn so much.
I'm a curious type so I read a lot & take notice others practices. I've only been a CT member since April this year and pushing the 1000 post mark pretty soon. Not that the numbers matter, what matters is gitting involved watching & learning.
Don't be in a big hurry most of these coins are common. I just really kind of dove in. Thinking sometimes I wished I'd asked a few more questions. Though it's never really to late to ask.
Ken Dorney is just 1 of the handful hear that sell Asian oriental. Keep your eye's open. If you don't see them just ask surely we can point them out.

 

Pick me! Pick me!

I just looked at those lots of Chinese coins you picked out, and trust me, you don't want those. If you want good-quality Chinese cash in bulk with a bit of variety, I would go to an eBay seller called dong_hua_zhai, or if you want single nicer coins, go with wattwat or TomTangMu. They always have only genuine coins, an authenticity guarantee, and I have never had problems with them. Apart from Ken Dorney, other brick-and-mortar dealers include Bob Reis, Scott Semans, and Frank Robinson. I have dealt with all of them before.

I've bought from WAG before. They take PayPal at a 3% increase in price. The premium for US buyers is actually closer to 10% for some reason.

 

@TypeCoin971793 you are one of the usernames I couldn't remember...too many numbers. Three is my limit.

 

Someone earlier mentioned something you should consider when bidding with CNG, they don't do credit cards or paypal, so the quickest and most efficient way left to pay is wire transfer. If you are going to go down that route, factor in the bank fee into your auction.

That's one reason I prefer Agora, the flexibility in payments that they'll accept, though that does come at the slight disadvantage of a smaller auction, and perhaps not as many ultra-high end super expensive coins as CNG has (if that's something that matters to you).

Also try coolcoins.com, Ken is a member of this forum and an excellent dealer. I also love Civitas Galleries...a nice mix of high and mid-end ancient coins at reasonable market prices. And of course, Ancient Imports is worth browsing too. They have a huge inventory, but I'd say it's mostly low and mid-end coins, with the occasional high end ticket item mixed in between, but if you have time to kill, they are also worth a look.

 

As for that CNG coin you posted, I got mine from WAG, but it was much nicer and half the price.

 

No, that's wrong, they accept credit cards.

 

CNG does accept credit cards at no extra charge, but you need to call in and get a card on file with them. No way to do it through their website as far as I know.