Buy the coin, not the holder . . .

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ToughCOINS, Apr 2, 2024.

  1. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Here's an extreme example of the damage that one can do to oneself by buying the TPG assigned grade, rather than the coin.

    My opinion is that this coin has been cleaned, yet also has been graded MS67 and stickered by CAC . . . an absolute travesty.

    The obvious thinning of the frost in the fields, especially around the date, stars and legends attests to a conscious cleaning of this coin. PCGS and CAC have done the marketplace an injustice.




    Now admittedly, it is a rare date, and it is a nice looking coin, but that it is a solid MS67 coin is hardly arguable.

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  3. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    There is something wrong with that phrasing, or maybe I am interpreting incorrectly and you do agree with the Grade, or your satire skills are improving.
    Dynoking likes this.
  4. Lon Chaney

    Lon Chaney Well-Known Member

    I see what you're talking about. Is there another possible explanation? Just seems strange that PCGS and CAC would both get it wrong.
    Cheech9712 likes this.
  5. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I see what you're seeing.

    But if it's in PCGS plastic and has a green bean, I'd have to say that it's "market acceptable", because it's market accepted.

    It also makes me despair of ever being able to grade gold accurately myself, but that's nothing new. :(
  6. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    My eye, my grade, my gold = FPG "First Party Grader." I hope you get it!
  7. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I withhold judgement unless the piece is in hand.
    It is impossible to accurately grade a mint coin from a photo, and 3X more so for a PQ Gold piece.
    The best in the business can't.
    My amateurish comment is that coppering is at play, and the GC photo is not quite capturing the subtleness.
    What I do know, is the Bidders that have placed a hard bid have viewed the coin and are quite capable of identifying any fault with the coin, and bid accordingly.
  8. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    And, just in case it was a thought, it is not Iodine. The fellow that wrote the book addressed that concerning this coin.
  9. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Date and around the stars, very obvious.
    Anthony Mazza and Cheech9712 like this.
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Which book is that, and was he addressing this particular coin, or this type?
  11. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Gotta agree with @ToughCOINS. Is there a "rare and expensive coin" bias favoring this TPG and CAC grading decision?
  12. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    The cleaning "Erm Erm, conservation/restoration" was probably done by PCGS. It's ok to make your coins more visually appealing so long as you pay the TPGs to do it.
  13. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    From a photo, it does make me wonder.
  14. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Yes. This particular piece.
    -jeffB likes this.
  15. The Half Dime

    The Half Dime Arrows!

    I believe that this is exactly why they did it. PCGS, and any other company, would rather get $300 out of a coin than $200 or less.
    nerosmyfavorite68 likes this.
  16. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    Those surfaces are very odd looking, especially in the TrueView. I bet it’s a blazer in hand after whatever was done to it as far as luster though (which was probably the reason they did it.)

    I don’t think what we are seeing is “thinning of the frost” but a combination of original skin still remaining on the coin after conservation (star halos) and the gaps in the fields in the images is just due to the lighting. I would be willing to bet the coin has uninterrupted, bold cartwheels. For example, look at the same area in the TrueView, where it is clearly frosty vs. in the GreatPhoto where it appears deficient.

    Not my cup of tea personally, but CAC stickers coins that have been conserved all the time as long as it hasn’t been taken too far. Often times, it’s too far for me though.
    ddddd likes this.
  17. Long Beard

    Long Beard Well-Known Member

    While I would agree with your thoughts on cleaning signs, very tough based on an image. I've seen quite a few ms coins, in hand, which show different patina around the devices than in the open fields, which is what I think is going on here. Is it an M67? The bag marks on the cheek and just above the nose seem more of a 66. Just my opinion there.
  18. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    You're all nuts.

    The coin has some light oxidation over pristine surfaces.
  19. RonSanderson

    RonSanderson Supporter! Supporter

    I am confused. What process could clean a coin with this incredible precision around the stars and date, even within the closed shapes? The different surface runs right up the very boundary of the devices, yet does not touch them.

    I would expect that such an alteration has to be made to the die itself, where the fields are the highest surface and the flattening spans over the cavities that become the devices.

    I do seek to understand better, because I don’t really understand this look.

    Mr. Numismatist likes this.
  20. CircCam

    CircCam Victory

    I don’t either, the more I look at it I keep thinking it’s perhaps just toning around the devices instead of conservation, but the halos are so dramatic in the TV that it looks unnatural and made me think it was a light dip of some sort with the thickest parts around the date and stars hanging on. In any case I’m not of the opinion that it was harshly cleaned. Looks much more natural in the slab images for one thing.
    ddddd and RonSanderson like this.
  21. potty dollar 1878

    potty dollar 1878 Well-Known Member

    Doesn't look like cleaning to me,the luster is perfect and undisturbed as well as the surface besides a little oxidation on the surface as stated above which really shouldn't effect the grade at all as a near perfect example.Not sure if I remember correctly but I believe some of my grandfather's coins looked like this after being stored in brittle cardboard for some time.
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