Bruttium~Lakinian Real or Fake?

II don't mind being rude. I think he is doing the right thing sending the coins off for 'grading'. Obviously he does not know enough about the coins to expertise them himself and the source of the coins was quite questionable so sending them off will allow the 'survivors' to be sold with a clear conscience. I do not pretend to know enough to expertise coins from a photo alone so my opinion on the coin is not worth the electrons it is printed on. Send it to NGC, pay for the service and post the coin on eBay with a price too high for the coin. That is the business model most populer today.

If I were guessing, I'd guess fake.

 

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Thank you. I think?

 

Apparently, fakes have been riddling the ancient market for a very long time probably longer than most of us have been alive (dougsmit?). There have been professional counterfeiters since the time of ancient coins, and they have deceived many. I guess it is scary that there are so many different good ones, and that is why I am here to get help. Thank you to all who have helped.

 

My main concern isn't about the ancient fakes. For those, fourees usually show themselves with age. In some cases, the ancient counterfeiters obtained original dies and in a few odd cases the "counterfeiter" was the government itself. There isn't much we can do about those and they'll probably be considered genuine way past our lifetimes.

But the modern fakes are a problem. The vast majority now are very crude and aren't that difficult to decipher. However, I've read that it's become extraordinarily difficult to detect fake coins in the Chinese ancient coins market. One worry I have is it's inevitable that they'll turn their craft to ancient Greek and Roman coins.

This hit's a nerve for me because the majority of people I show my coins to today believe they are fake. The idea that a coin so ancient can be so well preserved is probably the reason a US dollar from 1794 (the best copy, but others are known) sold for three times the only known gold Eid Mar in private hands, despite the immense superiority of the Eid Mar in historic value, age, and rarity.

 

I believe you are correct. The modern fakes are getting better in U.S. Coins as well. That is why you will see most high dollar U.S. Coins in a slab from a reliable TPG. The price of the 1794 dollar is because the much higher demand on Flowing hair dollars (many more collector's). If this collection has done anything, it has opened the eyes to the importance of TPG's in my opinion.

 

Modern casting techniques can preserve the more obvious flow lines if they were present on the original from which the mold was made. Microscopic flow lines which produce luster on mint state coins are another matter. [edited]

 

Keeping in mind that I'm a beginning collector in ancients and a non-collector in non-ancients, my understanding is that TPGs are vastly different in those markets. If I'm looking at some old US coin, a TPG makes sense because the company behind it (such as NGC) is guaranteeing that the coin is genuine, and the grade - which affects the price greatly - was made by an expert. The case also prevents the grade from deteriorating, which is definitely possible with the higher grades.

TPGs have much lower value for ancients. First, it does not guarantee the authenticity of the coin. NGC is very clear about that. Second, the grading doesn't matter so much. Grade varies significantly by person and company, and buyers mostly factor how the coin looks in a full scale image. When it really boils down to it, all NGC provides for ancients is a case.

Personally, I prefer not to buy encased coins. I've yet to buy one, but if I do I'll split the case. Many others here also split open the cases. At least for me, the case is annoying because it prevents me from fully seeing+handling the coin, makes photography challenging, and doesn't fit with how I display my coins.

 

Sorry, but this is simply not true. NGC doesn't guarantee the authenticity of ancients, yes. However their experts (who post on this board) have seen it in-hand. They will not slab a coin which they deem to be fake or questionable.

In effect you are paying for their opinion on a coin's authenticity. It's the in-hand opinion of an expert.

I do break open any slabs which I happen to purchase. But I keep NGC's little piece of paper with the serial number. I think many people who break open the slabs do the same.

 

Good point. Although it’s not a ROCK SOLID GUARANTEE, it’s a pretty good bet. This can be said with all TPG. There will be counterfeits which slip through the cracks. I think the main difference is that most TPG have a monetary guarantee if they slab a fake modern coin but no such guarantee on ancients.

 

The OP coin looks off to me but I could be wrong. Maybe it's the photo.

As mentioned the dies for this series is known and it should be relatively easy to find a match if genuine. My example has the same crab reverse but a different obverse control mark.



Veiled head of Hera Lakinia right, wearing polos; scepter over shoulder, feather to left

ΒΡΕΤΤΙΩΝ
Zeus standing left, right foot on ionic capital, holding scepter; crab to left, [tiny Γ between foot and scepter].

Second Punic War issue. Circa 216-214 BC.
3.88 g.

Arslan dies 12/17’; Scheu 68–77 var. (obv. symbol);

HN Italy 1969. VF, toned, struck with worn dies.

Rare issue with feather on obverse, unknown to Scheu.

Ex-CNG 407 lot 14, From the B. H. Webb Collection. Ex-Pipito Collection

 

Sent you a private message, I think you could conclude this thread

 

What you say is true, but my concern is since there's no actual guarantee, one can't fully trust a slabbed coin as genuine. Even worse is that most vendors can only blindly trust the TPG since the coin isn't available for close inspection.

From a security standpoint, this is a huge hole. If I were manufacturing my own fakes, I'd want to build them up to where I can trick NGC. Once that's done, I can sell my coins on the most vaunted auction sites without a worry that they'll be caught.

For me, this lowers my value of TPGs significantly. Since I don't know how exhaustive NGC's evaluation is compared to the major auction houses like CNG, I'd rather take the word of a vendor that at least provides the option to return a coin if it's determined to be fake. For NGC encased coins, even if I remove the coin from the case and then find it to be fake, there will be a huge burden on me to prove it since the vendor can state that NGC encased it.

 

I really hope the OP is genuine, because if it is fake, it looks really good.

This was an interesting discussion - as somebody who buys most of my coins off eBay I like robust discussions of the ancients fake problem.

There have been many discussions about this over the past couple years I have been a member and I am beginning to think that condemnations of eBay are based on the high-end high-dollar material. I agree, it is too risky to buy something like, say, a Tiberius "Tribute Penny" on eBay unless it was slabbed or from a very, very reputable dealer. I'd feel the same way about a lot of high-end stuff (including the OP, which may or may not be genuine).

Junky stuff - low grade or very common - is okay to buy on eBay, I think. Certainly, precautions should be taken, but I have a lot of fun wallowing in the low-end ancients. I've been burnt a few times, but most of this low-end stuff is genuine, I think.

For instance, just yesterday I got this in the mail. The eBay seller always has a lot of auctions going, mostly US and World. When he has ancients, they are often pretty good deals; if he has doubts, he won't sell them as genuine. This is a big (26 gram) sestertius of Trajan that he listed as a possible "medal" because he didn't know if it was genuine. I appreciate that kind of seller probity! For $15, I had no hesitation in taking the risk.



It is genuine, I am 99 and 44/100% sure - weight, style, no obvious signs of casting or "pressing." Furthermore, faking that kind of damage on this kind of coin would be counterproductive and non-remunerative. This being said, several other of this seller's "medal" auctions were obvious fakes, including one of the ubiquitous Reader's Digest man-headed bull tokens from Gela. Caveat emptor.

A collector buying from CNG or Heritage is not going to want to fool around on eBay looking for this kind of coin. Which is perfectly understandable. Where eBay becomes a trap is when high-end "eye candy" type listings show up that should be sold by a big auction firm. Many of these are fakes, and some of them dangerous fakes, not just obvious ones pressed in Bulgaria. The OP, if it is a fake, would be, I think, a very tempting and dangerous eBay listing.

A seller posting "is it fake?" threads on CT does not bother me, if, as @John Hulgin is doing here, the poster is saying that selling is what is he is doing, is making a good-faith effort to do his own research and is not flooding the forum with multiple posts per day. There can be a lot of educational opportunities from such posts.

 

NGC hires some of the best in the world. I am sure they make mistakes, but rarely. If it will fool NGC, It more than likely is going to fool the best experts. There are some web sites you can purchase on that have a great reputation, and would not risk it selling fakes. NGC is the same. They are not going to risk their reputation and grading fake coins. Plus I guarantee that more people are fooled by raw coins graded and authenticated by experts, than coins that are graded by NGC. If I am spending $100 I don't mind the risk, but not hundreds or thousands.

 

Yes, check out my posts from 2019 costly mistakes. I sent these coins before I knew about this ancient forum

 

I have decided long time ago that I shouldn’t comment on authenticity online, but I can at least share my coin: