Bruttium~Lakinian Real or Fake?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by John Hulgin, Apr 7, 2021 at 12:39 PM.

  1. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    This is a silver drachm. Bruttium Carthaginian. Lakinian obverse~crab reverse. Please let me know what you think.

    dimensions: 19mm ~ 4.9grams ~ 98% silver ~ 1% CU

    IMG_18320.jpg IMG_18321.jpg
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  3. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    Looks better than the previous few. Metal flow lines tend to not appear from cast or pressed fakes, so so far it’s looking better.

    not sure if that silver content is right or not for these but I think it might be
    John Hulgin likes this.
  4. Silphium Addict

    Silphium Addict Supporter! Supporter

    Correct weight and looks like correct dies
    Use “Brettii drachm Zeus crab” at to compare
    What are your concerns?
    John Hulgin and hotwheelsearl like this.
  5. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    This coin came from a collection mixed with genuine and fake coins. I am sending the real ones to NGC, but would like to get opinions before sending the money. Thank you for your help
  6. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I don’t want to be rude, but why are you sending for grading? In my experience the vast majority of ancient collectors don’t pay any more for slabs. In fact, many collectors will actively crack coins OUT of slabs.
    John Hulgin likes this.
  7. Nicholas Molinari

    Nicholas Molinari Well-Known Member

  8. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Yes, many collector's have told me the same thing. When I sell this coin, It will probably be on ebay, and it will be easier to sell in an NGC holder with less room for disagreement.
    Theodosius and hotwheelsearl like this.
  9. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Thank you for your opinions, I believe I will put this with my genuine group.
  10. Egry

    Egry Supporter! Supporter

    If this is the same person I’ve seen post coin authentication requests before I feel some comfort in the fact that you are making a genuine attempt to discern the real from the fake. In saying that I also hold a level of discomfort knowing that someone is selling ancients from a lot with known fakes when they openly have no confident idea at what they are looking at (other than making people aware of the type of fakes).

    My feeling is that people on here will assist you to identify the fakes not because they want to help an avid collector confirm their collection is genuine but so to prevent any forgeries from hitting the market and having the coin appear on here in the future. You are essentially recruiting free expert advice without really contributing anything.

    This is my opinion only as I have asked for authentication advice in the past for my personal collection. I hope I’m wrong as some may find enjoyment in assisting your business free of charge. Please feel free to let me know if I am way out in left field on this one and I’ll delete the comment.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 2:56 PM
  11. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Yes, I am trying to eliminate the fakes from the real and mark them as fake and send the real ones to NGC. I have learned a lot from this forum, and do try not to waste the time of others by eliminating obvious fakes.

    Some people are interested in what I have put up, and some have messaged me asking for more (maybe just to help them hone in on their skills. There are others that seem to get annoyed (which I understand a little bit), but I do feel the coins I have posted are not that obvious, and I do want to make sure.

    You are not in left field concerning my recruiting expert advice for free, and it has saved me money on grading fees. I am sure there are a lot of amateurs that have coins that they are not sure about, and are afraid to post them, because the experts get testy with them. I was also hoping it could help those that are not experts, but like collecting to have the boldness to ask if they have one that is questionable.
  12. Egry

    Egry Supporter! Supporter

    All valid points, and I have first hand experience with people getting testy in coin shops and forums. I’m probably less concerned about someone asking for free advice and more about someone selling ancients from a coin lot with known fakes.

    Just a suggestion, maybe use some of the money you are saving and become a Supporter of CT.
  13. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Great idea, How do I do that.
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  14. Egry

    Egry Supporter! Supporter

    Select your profile name tab at the top right, and select “account upgrades” which will give you a few options.
    John Hulgin likes this.
  15. Silphium Addict

    Silphium Addict Supporter! Supporter

    I am often curious about the authenticity of specific coins for my own interest. I don’t mind if anyone seems to have a legitimate question as long as they realize my advice is always worth almost as much as they paid for it.
  16. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    Thank you
    Alegandron and Egry like this.
  17. romismatist

    romismatist Active Member

    This actually looks like a genuine coin from what I can see. Good to have one that's not an obvious fake like the last few! Still, the current hit rate concerns me ;)
  18. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    I will try to do better in weeding out the fakes, but it is not as obvious to me yet this was a collection of several hundred, and I have weeded out many. Your opinion is important, and thank you for your help
  19. kirispupis

    kirispupis Active Member

    The existence of so many fakes in John's lot does give me cause for concern. I've tried to be very careful in purchasing my ancient coins. Not a single one comes from EBay and I've only purchased from online stores and auction houses dedicated to ancients and with excellent reputations. A few local coin stores carry ancients, but I haven't purchased any because I trust neither their nor my own judgements.

    I do wonder though that they must receive collections with similar numbers of fakes. My understanding is each has multiple experts who go through the coins, but it seems likely that they miss some.

    I also fear that it's inevitable that better fakes enter the market, perhaps even from someone testing coins on us to see which ones we can detect and why. If the fakes are good enough, NGC would slab them and few would ever suspect the encased coin was fake - since they don't read the fine print that NGC guarantees nothing.

    So, I am concerned that a collector gathered so many fakes, because it means a great many are trying to reenter the market and, if they're good enough, I'm likely to purchase one.
    Egry likes this.
  20. John Hulgin

    John Hulgin JHULGIN Supporter

    I understand your concerns. I do not want to see fake coins on the market, that is why I put sizes, weights, and purities on the coins to give all the details that I have on the coin.

    I am an amateur in ancients, but not in coins. I know that NGC is one of the best TPG's in ancient coins, and that is why I send my coins to them. You mentioned that it's inevitable that fakes enter the market, yet many ancient collector's do not agree with TPG's. So, many collections get riddled with fakes.

    This collection was riddled with fake and genuine coins, and since it was purchased from another dealer, I do not know what the original collector was buying, from whom or why. These fakes are not the easy to identify like silver plated drachms, or the obvious cast coins (in an amateur's eyes), so I do need help. I have been helped tremendously and hope to get more help in the future.

    Apparently, Most of the coins I have posted have been obvious to the experts in the field both good and bad. Some even recognized the area in which the fakes were made. That said, I am not casting up my own coins, or trying to deceive the world, I guess I am just trying to pull the gems out of a lot of rough. The rejects will be marked fake and used for my education.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 6:01 PM
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  21. Egry

    Egry Supporter! Supporter

    My fears exactly.
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