Bonediggers 2006 Christmas Contest

No one is forced to use TPG and the market ultimately determines value, so how can it be bad. Collectors decide how they want to purchase/collect coins & currency. If collectors find value in TPG, then it is beneficial to them. None of my coins are graded, but for me it is not necessary, doesn’t mean that their service should not exist. If no one found value in the service, they would be out of business and the question would be answered.

Seems simple enough.

BTW - Go Steelers! hope this doesn't hurt my chances

Darryl

 

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With so much money invested and being passed in the world of coins I fully understand the needs that TGP's fill but personally I think it takes something away from the fun of the hobby. I realize now that it is unlikly that I will ever get to put a 1909 S VDB cent into my Dansco. I guess I just wish there wasn't a "need' for TGP's.

 

Everyone talks like TPG is the end of the world. As collector who buys a coin, I'll display the coin in the manner that meets my needs. Really does not matter how it comes, if I think it would look better in my Dansco then that's where it would go. I have bought coins that are covered in thousands of years of dirt and that didn't bother me why would buying it in a sealed case bother me? I can always open the case. For me, it is important to own a coin I really like regardless of how it comes. For others, it's helpful so the service is useful and I'm happy for them.

 

TPG can be bad for a collector who buys rare slabbed coins, breaks them out of the plastic, puts them in an album and then later takes that coin out and attempts to sell it to a dealer. You then must pay for that coin to be authenticated again before a dealer will buy it because I know of no dealers out there anymore who will buy a raw rare coin from any Joe that walks off of the street, especially in the $800 and up range. Im talking about coins that are known to be counterfeited, everyone knows the ones at the top of the list.

 

Then I guess that answers the question. TPG is necessary if you want to sell your valuable coins. It is necessary because there are counterfeited coins in the market and as a result others will not buy without Authentication. It is a sad fact of life but necessary to help prevent/curtail the wide spread distribution of fakes.

Question is how much does the Authentication cost for a rare ($800 or more coin) and would that cost really prevent you from handling the coin in a manner you desire?

Darryl

 

TPG's have helped as well as hurt the hobby! Although they were a significant factor in bringing the fun and trust back into the hobby by authenticating coins...thus weeding out many of the counterfeits that have circulated through the hands of many Dealers and Collectors for umpteen years, they at the same time, lost focus and have done a great disservice by overgrading. While the authentication of coins has restored much of the trust, the overgrading of coins which highly inflates their' actual value has harmed many Collectors and has begun to return distrust to the hobby. We all hear nightmare stories about someone purchasing a coin that was graded MS-?? for thousands of dollars, only to find out that the coin's grade (condition) is actually two grades lower then what is on the slab and worth hundreds or thousands of dollars less than what they paid for it.

There is a lot of discussion within the hobby, to force the TPG's to stick to authentication and attribution and leave the grading up to the Coin Dealers and the Buyers (Collectors)! Yes, even this concept can do harm as new and unknowledgeable Coin Collectors go out to purchase coins and have no idea on how to evaluate the grades! However, this will force the Coin Dealers to be more accountable for the price and grade that they sell the coin at, as they will not be able to pass the buck per say and lay the blame on the TPG that graded the coin or coins and at the same time force Coin Collectors to become educated and more knowledgeable about coin grading and the hobby overall.

Another thing that the TPG's must work to accomplish and that is to come up with a completely tamper proof holder. Until then, many unscrupulous folks will continue to break out authenticated and graded coins from the slabs and replace them with counterfeit or lower grade coins.

This is how I see it and IMHO!!!!!!!


The Other, Other Frank

 

That is a good question USS656, unfortunately its one I cant answer as I've never sent one to a grading service. I've recieved authenticated slabbed coins as gifts (got one yesturday), but have never bought any. As for the way each individual collector handles their own coins, its ultimately up to them. :thumb:

 

I believe that I am more likely to be oversold by a dealer if TPG did not exist. While there may be some out there that will give you a fair deal, there will be just as many if not more who do not. The collectors/dealers may be better served by setting standards for grading like you see with ANSI in private industry. That should level the playing field a little.
If a TPG company does not follow the standard then they should not recognized as a legitimate service.
You need to protect the hobbyist/collector that is not well educated and this should be the means to do so. Just look at what eBay has done to the distribution of fakes. More people collecting coins is good for everyone so lets make it safer and not reduce the ability to get grading done reliably. Was reading somewhere that anyone can become a dealer. Trust me, if I was to become a dealer you would not want to rely on my ability to accurately grade your coins.

I agree that a tamper proof holder should be used otherwise what is the point, we are back to dealing with questionable coins.

 

BTW: You could never talk me into believing this statement. I have dealt with people that do not care that they have ripped you off. I have heard before people say directly to me, fine sue me. They will find plenty of other buyers even if they lose you.

You just moved the blame down a notch to where the consumer is blaming the dealer. The dealers should be better equipped to judge the grading of the coin by the TPG company than the consumer can with a dealer.

"force Coin Collectors to become educated and more knowledgeable about coin grading and the hobby overall."

Sounds good but is not practical. If you are trying to force a large population into the finer points of grading, you will not be successful and more damage will be done to the hobby. I have two very young kids and I barely have time to take my wife out to a nice dinner alone from time to time. Sorry honey - dinner is out this week because I need to make sure some dealer is not going to rip me off. End of hobby or marriage! Let me work my way into the hobby without the demands of having to be as educated as the dealer.

Everyone should think like the uneducated collector, not the dealer. You want to build their confidence.

Darryl

 

Not at all my man, not at all. Being a fan of the World Champion Steelers is not a bad pastime what-so-ever

Ben

 

YEA!!!!! GO STEELERS!!!!!

 

http://www.pittsburghtitle.com/

You can still believe!


:smile

 

To answer the question....

TPGs are a tool; nothing more and nothing less. If you have a job to do that you are unable to accomplish on your own, such as grading, authentication, or detection of cleaning, and you know that you aren't good at it, then it is foolish not to employ an available tool. However, different tools serve different purposes and a collector shouldn't blame the tool if it fails to accomplish a job it was not designed for. One TPG may slab cleaned coins and a second may not. If you don't want a cleaned coin, it is foolish to employ the first TPG as the tool for the job, or to blame the TPG for not performing a job it wasn't designed for. Also, just as there are different quality tools at different prices, there are leading TPGs and bargain TPGs. Don't expect the bargain basement tool to perform as well as the leading company, but if all you need is authentication, then a less expensive TPG may do the job for a smaller cost than a leading TPG. You often get what you pay for, but don't pay for more service than you need. Finally, remember that while tools are helpful, they don't do the whole job for you. The user/collector still must judge the eye-appeal, price, whether the coin is high or low quality for the grade, and whether or not the coin is suitable for inclusion in a particular collection. So remember, tools can be enormously helpful, or you can get hurt if you use them carelessly. The responsibility is yours.

 

Hey Bone, I thought that this was supposed to be a contest by posting what we find good and bad about TPG's and not a debate on every post that someone disagrees with! It seems that everytime that you start a contest, it gets out of hand. If this one get's "CLOSED", then you will probably have to wait until Doug's contest has completed!:whistle:


The Other, Other Frank

 

Sorry - The Other, Other Frank.

Didn't mean to get out of hand, just trying to understand the points made by some people that are more knowledgeable/experienced than me...

Point of contest was to give your opinion on the topic not to have to defend it...

Best Regards,

Darryl

 

God I hope not. Seems everything I type lately upsets somebody, especially after the PCGS board was pruged

Merry Christmas
Ben

 

OOPS, forgot to add. My wife will be the judge on the winning post. She offered to if I were to surprise her with some ear-rings as a stocking stuffer. Ah..., doing so it simplifies things for me

Ben

 

That's a relief. At least now the judging will be fair.

 

Darryl,

No apology needed! I just wanted this contest, the second contest that Bone has tried to have within two weeks to stay on task and run until there is a winner! The subject matter is a great topic for debate and I am sure that if Bone doesn't mind, you or someone else could start a Thread on the subject in the "Coin Chat" forum. Who knows, maybe through debate, we could actually find a way to revolutionize the Coin Grading industry which will have a positive effect on the hobby of coin collecting.


The Other, Other Frank

 

On the question of TPG'ers:
They have definately been a boon to beginning collectors and advanced collectors alike.
I know of one instance, in particular, where the purchaser of two coins, a 1913 S and 1896 S Barber quarters in nice, fine grades. He found out that they were both bogus. As a result, he saved a small fortune and was easily able to return them to the dealer where he had purchased them.
TPG'ers, when they are good at their job, are a boon to the hobby by protecting both the novice and the advanced collector by staying up on the abilities of fakers who are able to produce better and better fakes. As a result, collectors, myself included, feel more comfortable purchasing a more expensive piece knowing that it has been determined to be an authentic coin. Would I have ever purchased a 1916 Standing Liberty quarter otherwise? No, I think not. Now I have one in a PCGS holder, graded as a VG-10, and I love to visit with it.
The biggest negative is that there is no standardization to the grading system nor is there a standardization to the qualifications that the TPG'ers must have before they plop a label or a grade on the slab and push it out there for the public to see.
If there were some regulation then we may be able to get rid of the alphabet soup of graders who are popping up every other day.
So, simply, yes, TPG'ers are good and they can be bad. Even the best (PCGS and NGC) are ruining the hobby by playing to the various topical slabs of the day " First Strike," Flag Quarter slabs", et cetera.
Thanks.