Body Bag Question

Yes Speedy and when the expert gets fooled, which happens, you are the one who places a cleaned coin in your collection, not the person making the mistake.

Very simple; If they can be fooled, then you and i can be fooled!

 

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True...that is why I'm harder than most people about what coins go in my collection.
I kick out coins that I say might have been cleaned with my dealer and other guys say they haven't been...

But if the grading Co. changes and see the mistake the guy that messed up gets called on the carpet and they also (at least PCGS and I think NGC) buy the coin off of you and put the coin on a wall around the room where the graders see what the missup cost them.

Speedy

 

I find it funny that they actually offer to purchase the coin from you; I wonder what they pay for it.

Grading companies make mistakes etc. but top tier graders make less of them. If you do not agree with a grader's policies, then dont send your coins to them. If you don't like it, buy your own slabs and grade all your coins ms70 like the rest of the people on ebay.

 

Seems to me that the grading services would be required to place counterfiets into the custody of the US government instead of returning them to the customer in a body bag.

 

After reading everybody's comments in here, I have to say that I agree with the opinions of those who would like to see everything slabbed, regardless of the outcome (cleaned/not cleaned/counterfeit/etc.). When people send in their coins to a TPG (for the most part) they are sending them in specifically to be slabbed. Authentication and determination of the state of the coin (cleaned/not/whatever) is a step in that process. When something comes back BB'd and not slabbed, my money has been wasted on that process. Many numismatists submit things to TPGs for grading and slabbing because they themselves are not skilled enough to make the determination of a coin's true grade and state. I know I'm not. So when the company refuses to grade a coin and keeps the fee charged for the service, it seems to be robbery. It seems to be a very shady practice in which you are gambling for a service that ought to be fulfilled rather than hit-or-miss.

As for

you are quite right: the reason to slab coins is to provide authenticity, even if the coin is AUTHENTICALLY CLEANED or an AUTHENTIC FAKE.

I don't know what they could do, though. Perhaps there would be some merit in trying to implement a system by which there are separate submittance and slabbing fees. Something like where you could submit a coin for authentication for X dollars, and have it returned to you in the same condition that it was submitted in (i.e. unslabbed), and there could be a separate fee of Y dollars for slabbing. This way, people who just wanted EVERYTHING slabbed regardless of cleaning/counterfeiting/etc could have their coins slabbed. This way they absolutely know that they will be getting what they have then paid for. I know I'd be more inclined to use something like this system for coins they I'd like to have professionally graded but not slabbed, and for other coins that I'd like both slabbed and graded. Maybe in the future they'll switch to some kind of fairer system....

And for those of you who don't want slabs with cleaned coins or fakes or whatnots, simply don't purchase them and you'll be fine.

Anyway, that's what I think about it. ~AJ

 

But who's time have you wasted...I think we should be the ones that study and try NOT to send in a fake coin...if we do it is only right that they should BB it.

Can you guess how many people that would mess up....sellers could sell on ebay THIS IS A AUTHNTIC fake 1916-D DIME....

You must remember that the graders have to make a living and they charge a fee for that...so why should that retrun that....there is NO reason.

Speedy

 

Spencer, the TPG's are the ones providing a service to us, and they will spend on average the same amount of time grading and slabbing a coin as they would grading and bodybagging one, so we are not then wasting anyone's time. We as budding and growing numismatists do indeed need to study for ourselves and not TRY to send in fakes, but I do think that the ones that are sent in need to be encapsulated like everything else.

And yes, the graders need to make a living and they charge a fee for their service of grading and slabbing coins. They do not advertise in this manner: "Come pay $35.00 so that we can look at your coin, tell you it's fake, and then ship it back to you without returning your money." They advertise like this: "Send us your coin for $35.00 so that we can grade and slab it." They need to abide by that type of standard and grand and slab everything they get.

Something else is, you said "why should they return that" (I assume you mean the fee) and I don't necessarily think they should. As I suggested, if the TPGs slab everything, then there's no need for them to return the fees. The slabs themselves are just plastic and probably don't cost more than a few cents on the dollar. The companies aren't losing much of anything by slabbing all the coins they get.

~AJ

 

Andrew
I'll post later when I'm done with school.....or off for lunch....

One thing...

can you prove that they don't cost much....then you must add in how much rent do they pay...how much for the sealing sys they have to seal the slab with high pitch sound...
The the companies are losing...they have to pay their graders....and the graders must make enough to pay....rent/gas/food/ and anything else that they need....if they didn't get that much money they would quit...and if they quit that wouldn't do us any good....think about it...they charge for a good reason....and they have the right to not slab anything if they don't want to...the owner the Co. can send it back.

And BTW...they do say if you would read that they don't slab some items and some are returned in BB....so why the fuss....now if they didn't say that I can see a point...but they DO say that right our front so there is NOTHING to fuss about.

Speedy

 

how much does it cost to have a coin sent in to pcgs? tell me, and then i'll give you an opinion.

 

Andrew

When they BB it they don't grade it....

That shows hopw me and you and many others disagree!

julzboi661

PCGS charges I think $25....ANACS charges $15 and PCI charges $9 I think but you don't get good grading there IMO.

Speedy

 

Speedy, the grading companies are obviously making some sort of a profit on the encapulation of coins, or else they would not be in business. Even if they raise the price from $25/$15/$9 as you quoted below to something like $30/$20/$12 or so, and did encapsulate everything, they would STILL be making a profit on everything, AFTER all of their fees. Especially with what I would speculate would be an increase in the number of submittals of coins for encapsulation. So looking at the fees for electricity/wages for employees/slabs/sealing system/etc to say that that's a poor grounds for slabbing everything is not logical nor relevant. The grading comanies will still be able to maintain business. They're making profits right now on encapsulations (and I do not include fees obtained from bodybagged coins in this statement), and they will continue to do so if they slabbed everything.

Sure they do. Not with a numerical grade, perhaps, but they still have to take the time to look at it and determine it's authenticity, both steps in the grading process IMO. But that's just semantics, so we'll drop it.

Which is totally fine, though I think that if you looked into the idea of slabbing everything a little more, I think IMO that you would find that it's not such a bad idea. It would give people the chance to really 100% know exactly what they're looking at in a coin. 95% of the time, I can't tell a cleaned coin from an uncleaned one, or a dipped one from a non-dipped. That's because I'm still learning, but it would be helpful to be able to know that while I am learning to recognize it, I'll be able to have points of reference to guide me through the encapsulation of coins that had been cleaned. It would serve both as a guide for what people are buying and a learning tool for some of us. And like I said, it doesn't hurt you or the numismatic community at all to switch from grading only non-problem coins to grading and encapsulating everything, except for a possible slight increase in submittal fees to TPGs. If you (or whomever else) don't want those coins in your collection anyway, then you simply don't purchase them, exactly as you have been doing. And those that want blast-white but cleaned coins who don't care, they can get them. No harm done!

~AJ

 

TPGs like PCGS are a business. The business is not a charity, they exist for the purpose of making money. PCGS is the only first tier grading company that actively sets the prices of the coins they grade. Because the prices are set by grade, problem coins cannot be accurately priced. This is why they bodybag coins.

Net grading is confusing and it is very difficult to put a price on how much a coin is worth. If you have an error coin and need it to be attributed, do not go to PCGS. Send it to ANACS instead. Only send your problem free coins to PCGS. There is no reason to have a G-4 slabbed wheat penny unless it's a 1909-s VDB.

Problem coins are not a good investment. If you want a coin to invest, buy a new coin, get it graded at PF-69+ and watch it's value skyrocket. Old coins are generally a poor investment unless you know what you are doing.

If you want all your coins slabbed, either get it graded by a TPG that will slab anything or buy your own slabs.

 

pcgs should slab EVERYTHING thrown its way. ANACS would do well do do the same. I've never heard of the other. Do you have to have a membership with ANACS to send in a coin?

 

- changed my mind -

 

The big three TPGS make more mistakes than most people realize in my opinion. Some of the micro O Morgan dollars graded by ANACS, PCGS, and NGC turned out to be contemporary counterfeits. I think ANACS is slabing them as counterfeits now though.

I think that if a coin has more than one problem making it unslabable then the TPG will just list the first problem they see and leave it at that. If a coin comes back in a BB as "rim damaged" that is no garantee that the coin is genuine or that it doesn't have other major problems.

David Hall said that PCGS has thought about grading damaged coins and listing them as such, but decided not to because it would lower their credibility.

Charlie

 

None of the BB I have seen ever have a grade....

Same here...that is why I'm hard on coins....I have messed up some and have learned from that....

I don't think its a bad idea....but I don't think they should do it...its one that is border line IMO...if they did it I'm not going to quit using them but I'm not going to tell them they should change...

Nope..go to their site and read more...they are my pick.

www.anacs.com

Speedy

 

I'll be perfectly honest with you here, JD, and say that I'd be a lot more willing to trust the TPGs if they did slab everything as I said. Then everybody knows exactly what they're getting. I see no harm in slabbing a coin that will have "cleaned" on it's label, or "dipped", or what-have-you. Why would the general public NOT trust a TPG for providing accurate labels for coins that have been labelled "problems"? That coin could have been very harshly cleaned or whatever and still be a genuine 1916-D mercury dime.... so why not slab it and label it as a harshly cleaned 1916-D.... Like I said, it would make me less wary of using their services and make me trust them more.

Speedy, please re-read my post. Especially the part where I said "not a numerical grade, perhaps"....

~AJ