Bidding When Is The Best Time

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Dave363, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Problem is Ebay will never agree with you and claim they see no evidence. Bids run up by shills means higher revenue for them.

    Baseball21 doesn't care if he has to pay a lot more than he has to, as long as it is not more than his max bid.

    The bad part about that was you had to leave the buyer that feedback as a POSITIVE.
     
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Absolutely a bit much to expect sellers to destroy their own accounts canceling bids for no reason just to keep the price down for the winner.

    It's actually not more than I have too, it's what I would have too. Sellers don't let things go for pennies on the dollar. It's one thing to let a 15 dollar item go for 5, but they aren't going to sell a $300 one for a $100.

    Most shilling on eBay is just used as a reserve price since they play games with visibility
     
  4. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    So you think it is OK for sellers to cancel auctions if they don't bring as much as the seller thinks they should.
     
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    On eBay yes I do. Buyers are allowed to back out of their winning bid whenever they want or cancel their bids with no consequences. As long as buyers are allowed to do that sellers should be allowed to as well.

    As long as buyers aren't held responsible for their purchases/bids I won't hold sellers to a higher standard
     
    jafo50 likes this.
  6. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Well, at least that's settled.
     
  7. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    I have had to do that also. How else can you warn the buying public about them? With some of the sellers, a buyer has to wait 7 days to leave negative feedback. For one what does a seven day wait do? Secondly, it gives the seller another week of mayhem and destruction. Unfortunately one has to look for the positive to find the negative on E-Bay.

    I have done the incremental bidding before on inexpensive coins. The increments were so small a max bid was pointless. Even then it was no more than three increments and I either won or was no longer a buyer. With more expensive coins I will have a maximum amount I would pay for the coin. If someone shilled the bid up to my max amount and I still won the coin, I am a happy camper. Would I be happier at paying a lower amount than my max? Well, yes, and that also happens, sometimes. Either way my goal is accomplished. I secured the coin on my terms and the seller's.

    I don't think there are really any strategies to bidding. The only winning strategy is to pay more for the item than anyone else is willing to. This isn't poker. I promise if you bid $1,000,000.00 on almost every coin in an auction you will win 99% of the time.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I just believe that whatever system is in place should go both ways. If one party is free to cancel their part of the transaction at any time with no consequences the other should be as well
     
    jafo50 likes this.
  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    The logic there is to prevent knee jerk reaction negatives. A cooling off period basically to think about it instead of going ballistic immediately when you open the package. I do think it does help somewhat with eliminating the unreasonable negatives.
     
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    "Free of consequences" is stretching things. Buyers who don't pay will eventually get dumped. It's just not as transparent as the process for sellers, who will accumulate visible negative feedback first.

    I still firmly believe that feedback should be symmetric. If sellers are using feedback extortion to abuse buyers, address that problem, but not by neutering half of the feedback system!
     
  11. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    So what about requiring communication before allowing negative feedback? If you're unhappy, message the seller. If you haven't messaged the seller, you don't get to trash their feedback. If your message is just abuse, the seller can report you.
     
  12. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not if they keep requesting cancellations. Short of trying to get sellers to sell to you off of eBay or being abusive in messages you really have to try to get banned as a buyer.

    I had a guy a while back win 8 auctions and buy 2 BINs, and then pretty much immediately say he wanted them all canceled. He's blocked but his account is still active.

    That would make too much sense. This is the same system after all that dings sellers for late shipments even if they shipped it on time and USPS was just slow.

    The waiting period seems to be their way of throwing sellers a bone without really attempting to have a real resolution.

    Also completely agree about the two way feedback. Any extortion would be in messages and really all its done is change it so some buyers extort sellers if they want good feedback left
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  13. Prez2

    Prez2 Well-Known Member

    There are rarely consequences for buyers not paying. Found that out the hard way. Also have seen sales cancelled fairly regularly when the bid is low. It's E-bay. What can you do?
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  14. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    If you want a system that doesn't work, then by all means use shills and allow unlimited cancellations by sellers.

    I honor my bids and expect the sellers to as well. I expect sellers to ignore the effects of shills who refuse to pay and I expect eBay to deal with those buyers just as I expect them to deal with the seller who uses the information provided by a shill (whether a co-conspirator or not).

    But if that system breaks down, then I'll just go back to the way I collected for the first thirty years. There every negotiation involved offers and not bids and could be accepted, declined or countered (ie declined with a new offer.) That way, you only have the buyer and seller involved in the negotiation.

    Auctions are different category. You compete with other buyers, but both the buyer and seller have already agreed to the sale under the terms of the auction. If a seller wants a minimum, then set that as a minimum bid or set a reserve. Using a shill drives the price up and buyers like me away.

    The only time I have worked with a seller to bypass an existing bid is when I've spotted an error in the seller's listing, but still want the coin. And it's always to acquire a less rare variety for a reasonable price though eBays buy it now feature. ie It's not an 1804, but it is an 1801 variety I want.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
    -jeffB likes this.
  15. serafino

    serafino Well-Known Member

    What can you do ? It happened to me on a coin that I won and the seller didn't like the amount of the winning bid, so he mysteriously "lost" the coin. Seller had a bad habit of pulling that "lost item" gimmick on other auctions. I gave him a negative and reported him to Ebay and listed the previous "lost item" auctions the seller had engaged in.

    I'm a serious buyer on Ebay and I don't play games with sellers, and I expect the same in return.
     
  16. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    So sellers are just supposed to ignore those bids from someone they don't know so you can get things dirt cheap? Your standard allows buyers to bid nuclear on two accounts scaring off all other bidders then the buyer saying I will only pay the minuscule price just above the third bidder.
     
  17. NumisNinja

    NumisNinja Active Member

    Many times there is no point in messaging the seller. They already know they did something unethical and will simply tell you to "send it back". They won't acknowledge misrepresenting the item and wasting your time. They'll just say sorry and go through the motions so they can try to prevent the neg feedback and then turn around and peddle their junk to the next easy target who hopefully won't be as astute as you were.

    You should just be able to neg them right off the bat if you feel they did something egregious. I don't return items typically, so I just want to be able to neg them and move on with life. I don't care to hear their canned response. Yet I NEVER neg them because I also dont want to ruin my reputation and be seen as a buyer who can't be trusted to leave appropriate feedback. My best offer bids might be less likely to be accepted if I start negging all the bad sellers.
     
  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    So you just want to ignore the rules and always follow caveat vendor. I'm OK with that as long as we both know we're doing it that way. But don't make rules you choose not to follow.

    In my case, the seller indicates he's relisting the item, he hasn't yet. But he's lost a customer and a frequent eBay bidder on his stock. We'll see how that works out for him.

    As for not knowing the shill, the seller knows he's a shill as soon as he/she refuses to honor his/her bid if not before. At that point, one increment over the next LEGITIMATE bid is what is RIGHT. If the shill bid is placed early, then perhaps canceling and relisting would be in order because it might have scare off legitimate buyers. But that doesn't apply to last second shill bids which can't have that effect.

    And yes, I expect to pick up a few coins below market to average out those I purchase above market.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Please tell me what rule is being broken because a seller allows a bidder to bid on his items.

    At this point I am honestly not sure you even understand what the term shill bidding means.

    The other bidder was legitimate. As far as the seller knows you were the other bidder scaring people off to try and claim you should get it much cheaper at the end. Unless you can prove the seller was the reason for the other bidder it was legitimate.

    So you expect sellers to have some magical ability to say this guy isn't going to pay I'll just go ahead and cancel? :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

    And there's your problem right there
     
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I won the new listing at $122.48 so all's well that ends well. But I probably won't be participating in any more of his auctions.

    But I couldn't let a S-210 go to someone unaware of what they had.
     
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