Beware of rainbow toning

I don't have a strict definition of rainbow toning, as Chiefbullsit tried to point out earlier in this thread, and the apples to oranges accusation still applies to the coins that you are showing. I have stated the reasons previously, but you seem to want to ignore them. First, you are showing ultra rarities with some measure of toning. If you removed most of the toning patterns and color schemes from those coins and placed them on Morgan Dollars, you would not end up with a significant price premium. In addition, you are showing mostly proof coins which tend to tone differently than mint state coins, thus apples to oranges. You can't compare the toning on a high grade proof Barber to that on a Morgan Dollar, you just can't do it.

Regarding toned proofs, the color is very elusive, both in hand and in photographs. In the photographs, the toning looks impressive, but in order to capture that toning, you need to view the coin at a certain angle with correct lighting conditions. If you go back and research some of Doug's old posts, he will corroborate exactly what I am saying, though he thinks that it happens with all toned coins. I will tell you that the range of angles you can easily view most mint state toning is far greater than the range for proof toned coins. Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is one of the most vibrantly toned Jefferson Nickel proofs I have ever seen.



But those colors only pop like that when the coin is viewed under a bright light source at a very small range of angles. In order to capture that color in a photograph, it was necessary to flood the surface of the coin with diffused lighting. If you view that same coin under direct lighting conditions, the same lighting conditions I use to photograph all of my mint state toners, the appearance of the coin changes drastically.



Now you can still see hints of color, but it is nowhere near as dramatic as the first photograph. This is what the catalogs are talking about when they refer to iridescent toning on a proof coin. For the most part, it has the appearance of most proof coins, black and mirrored. I hope this helps explain why you can't compare toning on proofs to toning on mint state coins.

While you may think that my definition of rainbow toning is strict, you will find that most people who collect rainbow toned coins have a similar view. You are looking at 30 year old catalogs of some toned ultra rarities with amazing pedigrees and are using those coins as examples of coins that drive a premium based on eye appeal. IMO, you are simply enamored with the magnitude of these coins and are severely over emphasizing the actual beauty of the toning on these coins. I'm not saying the coins are not beautiful, I'm saying that most of the beauty comes from the level of overall preservation in combination with the rarity and pedigrees, and not from the toning.

Again, those are not the types of coins that we are discussing in this thread. We are talking about common coins that when combined with dramatic rainbow toning, become uncommon coins with a huge price premium associated with the toning, and are targets for coin doctors looking to cash in.

Nobody is going to attempt to artificially tone a 1904 Barber Quarter PR67 CAMEO. It is a $3K + coin and messing with it could significantly reduce the value. Btw, I had to go to the Heritage archives to check the price. How many of these 1904 Barber Quarters in PR67 CAMEO have dramatic toning?



And if we look closely at the one that you would say has beautiful rainbow toning, first we see the "beauty shot" as Heritage calls it.



Then they show you the slab photo, what it really looks like!



Do you really want to call that coin rainbow toned?

 

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I truly do like the color on that '64 Jeff, but the crud bugs me. On balance, I don't like it. I'd rather have a clean ordinary one.

 

I think the Rice Krispies factory was in Battle Creek, if that helps.

 

Those catalogs are from the mid 90s thru mid 2000s. Hardly 30 years old so be honest. 30 years and they wouldn't have TPG grades. Sheesh. For someone so bent on arguing at least get our facts right. How can I trust your opinion on rainbow toning if you are twisting clear bonfide facts?

Yes I would consider that Barber rainbow toning. Most toning HAS to be viewed at a specific angle to get the beauty shot. Now you're just grasping.

As for the pictures in those catalogs. Are you really that dense. I've already explained this once. They can't REALISTICALLY photo every coin and present it in color for an auction catalog. Especially 10 years ago. I also already explained that even with these being rarities the 'regular' dates were also being sold, just not photographed. As a dealer yourself, which coins are you going to push? Your rarer dates and money coins right? Duh. So those got pictured in the plate. Although with so many of those pictures showing high end toned coins I can INFER that most of their collection would be on par, especially a chosen lot for an auction catalog.

If you want to narrow down the discussion to your strict definition of rainbow toned (which is ridiculous when you stated that finding the best light and viewing angle to get the beauty view disqualifies coins from being in the 'rainbow' toned class) well you lost me.

I just think your defending a position that is close to home with you and not viewing the topic objectively

 

PCGS and NGC are 29 & 28 years old respectively, so I rounded up. They are not my catalogs, and it's called hyperbole. The point of bringing up the age of the catalog was to criticize the quality of the photographs. But since you brought up the subject of twisting facts, how do we know that you are not cherry picking your auction catalogs and showing only coins that support your argument. How many untoned coins are contained in those catalogs? Furthermore, why even use a paper catalog as a reference in the first place? Heritage has every auction for the last 15 years archived on their website. Why don't you pick an old Heritage auction so we can all see what you are seeing rather than trusting that your are being objective in your presentation of an old auction catalog that only you have access to?

That is simply not true. Now you are just parroting one of Doug's famous imaginations that he passes off as numismatic gospel on this forum.

That's hilarious, you are calling me dense. I'm not the one who can't differentiate between toned and rainbow toned despite several lessons on the subject. I'm not the one who doesn't understand that toning has very little effect on price of ultra rare coins. I'm not the one who doesn't understand the difference in toning patterns and appearance between proofs and mint state coins. You are a complete novice with regards to the subject of toning, but you want everyone to believe your misguided opinion because you own a few catalogs.

Perhaps you missed the photo of my Heritage auction catalogs. The true rarities usually get oversized photographs and lengthy descriptions and often an entire page all their own. For coins that are not key rarities in the auction, they usually choose conditional rarities and coins with exceptional eye appeal to photograph. They don't just select the most expensive coins.

You showed the plates, and I was not at all impressed with the toning on those coins. Some had attractive toning, most I would consider the toning neutral with respect to eye appeal. So yes, I would also INFER that the entire auction catalog is full of toned coins with toning that is neutral with respect to eye appeal.

You are trying to claim that rainbow toned coins are common by posting photos of coins that have toning patterns that do not command price premiums because they are toned, not rainbow toned. I can't even judge your objectivity on the subject because you have not even shown a basic understanding of what the entire discussion is about. The passage about the light and view angle was in an effort to teach you about the difference in appearance of toning on proof coins and mint state coins. By your own admission, you have no idea what I am talking about despite the fact that I gave you very clear examples.

We are talking about coins that are rainbow toned and carry significant premiums over the price guide value of an untoned coins. It is these coins that are the target of the coin doctors. We are talking about coins like this one:


1883 $1 MS64 PCGS $517.50 (Price Guide $55)



We are not talking about coins like this:


1904 25C PR67 Cameo PCGS $7475 (Price Guide $7500)



I chose the Morgan Dollar from the exact same auction as the Proof Barber Quarter that I selected earlier. Both coins were photographed at the same time using the same technique. You can't see any color on the slab photo of the Barber Quarter. And while the slab photo of the Morgan Dollar does not do the rainbow toning justice, can you see the color? This is my last attempt to get you to understand the difference in appearance of toned proofs versus toned mint state coins and why lighting and view angle is important.

Can you see that the price realized is almost 10X that of the price guide for the Morgan Dollar? Btw, ask me how many pages I had to scroll through before I found a suitable rainbow toned example to show you?

 

Dude he took one of you prime examples, the pf67 cam and showed you what it looks like in real life unjuced. I really don't think you are responding to the counter argument that many of the coins you use as evidence are not toned the same was as Lehigh Morgan example. The coins that really get the bucks are the ones you don't have to catch the light at the right angle or else it looks drab. Look at my avatar. You can look at it from any angle with the color clear as day.

I think you are building an argument on a flawed foundation.

 

To be fair, it was a different coin, but both were graded exactly the same and the toning patterns were very similar. If he doesn't understand that proof toning and mint state toning are different, then perhaps you (or someone else) can explain it to him.

 

1944 Walking Liberty Half Dollar (PCGS MS66)

 

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Yep, sure does. 'Splains a whole bunch, like why the color snaps, crackles, and, and, and ..... pops!

 

Ah, the old crackle toning that some TPGs accepted for a while.

 

I was in high school in KY (surprise) and had to move with my parents to Huntington W. Va. when I was a junior. In KY, the math went Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Plane Geometry, Solid Geometry, Trig. No Calc or pre-calc. When we moved, I was in Plane Geometry and most of the other students were Sophomores, since the school had a different math flow. In doing a proof, the teacher asked me if I had taken
Algebra 2 and when I said yes, she signed me up for Mu Alpha Theta. Got my certificate around somewhere.

 

Available classes at my high school were, as I am finding out, very advanced. I tested into Algebra I and Geometry in middle school, so I came in as a freshman taking Algebra 2. I graduated HS with Calc 2 and credits for college. Also had Chemistry, History, Psych, Biology, EnviroSci, English I & II already completed when I left for school, which was over summer, so I basically entered college as a sophomore by credits.

I thank my parents. One of my mom's favorite stories to tell is how my father used to test me with simple linear equations while walking around Publix when I was 4.

 

Proof!!!

 

They're proofs, if that makes a difference, and it's just straight steel blue. I can get a picture later, but the lighting isn't optimal right now, with the weather.

 

So they do do it in the woods......

 

Fascinating debate here. As a newcomer to the hobby I am finding it very informative and entertaining. Coincidentally, I just ran across these on ebay. To my very untrained eye, they look unnatural and certainly not "rainbow" as advertised by the seller. And, obviously they are slabbed. Thoughts on these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Silver...b71d7d&pid=100012&rk=5&rkt=12&sd=322370350125

 

Nevermind. The thread on it on CU seems to have been heavily moderated

 

The slabs are gassed or altered:

 

They were toned in the slab with some type of gas.