Beware of rainbow toning

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by merrill01, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    The 70 D was a mint set only coin. Only 2,150,000 made. They made 129,881,800 of the 69 D.
     
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  3. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

    can you or your friends artificially tone one for me and get it in a pcgs slab. id pay up to 1000.00 for a monster toned 70 d
     
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  4. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    I'm betting that, if you investigate this carefully enough, you'll find that it's NOT fully reversible. The sulfide ions don't attach solely to the coin's surface without disrupting the crystal structure; to get colors, you need layers many atoms thick. When you remove those sulfide ions, the silver atoms don't go back to their original positions.

    I'll grant that it may be possible to produce a formulation that doesn't damage pure metal, even on extended exposure; such a "safety dip" seems like it would be a big win. But if you let a coin tone deeply enough, or if you send it through enough toning-dipping cycles, you're going to lose the fine surface structure that produces luster.

    All the same, I look forward to seeing your results. I've thought of doing such a series of experiments myself, but that's not likely to happen. (Besides, I'm still miffed that I don't have an XRF gun or AFM of my very own. Yet.)
     
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  5. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    No.
     
  6. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

  7. Tim C

    Tim C Active Member

    WOW! I can’t believe that I read all four pages of this thread.

    The OP nailed it with his first sentence, “The reason for this post is that there are artificially toned coins demanding premium prices when the coin was just made up.”

    What is the difference between “AT” (Artificially Toned) verses “NT” (Naturally Toned) coins? To me, it doesn’t necessarily come down to Chemistry (If a coin is stored on purpose with the hope / intent of it becoming ‘toned’ whether or not if chemicals were used it is “Artificially Toned”.)

    I started collecting back in the early 1970’s, there were no “Rainbow Toned” coins back then like today, where did they all come from? Even the 1980’s and early 1990’s saw some lightly “tarnished” coins but no “Rainbow Toned” coins like today.

    If heard of it all, whether ‘pan fry’, stored in baggies with burnt matches, placed on hot water heaters wrapped in ‘taco bell’ napkins, using Wyatt album, if the intent was to tone the coin up then it is “Artificially Toned.”

    I myself would not waste any money buying toned coins because the majority of them were in all probability, like the OP stated “just made up”. I mean if they were “Naturally Toned” coins, where were they the first 200 years of our nation? Why did they only start showing up in the last twenty years or so?

    If someone wants to throw their money away buying them, collect what you want, who am I stand in your way (like the old saying goes, “A fool and his money soon parted”).
     
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  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    No, I will not do either of those two things.

    I asked for specific names of the dealers who are supposed fences for coin doctors and said divulging the names would be tantamount to libel without proof. No member of the Cointalk staff chimed in and stated that naming names of these people would be unacceptable. But when the names of known coin doctors was asked, you turned into the resident lawyer and said it would not be acceptable to name names. That leads me to believe that libeling a coin dealer who specializes in toned coins on Cointalk is acceptable and outing coin doctors is not acceptable. I didn't mean to imply that someone had been libeled and I apologize for being unclear in my post.
     
  9. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I don't doubt you know of some guys who can occasionally sneak an AT coin past the TPGs. I don't remember threads on this subject lasting very long on the CU forum. However, I remember this topic being very lively on the TCCS, where I was a very active member. We talked about the subject at length and even had instances were there were known AT coins in TPG plastic. The very best I had ever seen were a group of rainbow toned Morgan Dollars. IIRC, Chris from RCToners bought them and photographed them. I know that Shane was active in that thread as well, maybe his memory is better than mine. But for all my time on the TCCS, nobody would ever come out and specifically provide the name of an AT coin doctor who had significant success fooling the TPGs.

    I have admitted that it is possible to get an AT coin past the graders at the TPGs, but I refuse to admit that it is easy, that the chemistry is trivial, or that the integrity of all toned coins is in question because of a very small number of AT coins in TPG plastic.
     
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    The Peacock IKES and Appalachian Jefferson Nickels are very special cases where a group of coins appeared on the market with similar toning patterns and interesting stories. But lest we forget, both those examples are also 15 years old. If the coin doctors were that good 15 years ago, why haven't they been able to destroy the toned coin market? Even I will admit that when the coin doctors get to the point that they can consistently produce a product that is indistinguishable from NT, it will cause extreme damage to the toned coin market. That hasn't happened, therefore the coin doctors are not able to consistently fool the TPGs.
     
  11. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    WRONG!

    [​IMG]

    If rainbow toned coins didn't exist in the 80's, how do you explain the cover of the magazine shown above. What didn't exist in the 80's was the internet and digital photography, so the only way people saw coins was coin shows and coin shops. The people interested in rainbow toned coins back then were basically a niche group of collectors. These coins were not put in the display cases, they were kept in the back and taken out when a toned coin collector would ask to see them. This is reason why you never saw rainbow toned coins back then, but they damn sure existed.

    Furthermore, you can't judge the market acceptability of toning with intent. When you grade a coin, you very rarely even know the storage conditions of the coin much less the intent of the owner in that respect. All you can do is look at the coin and decide if the toning pattern and color scheme is acceptable for that series of coin. You can evaluate toning progressions, elevation chromatics, pull away toning, and toning correspondence, but you can't evaluate the intent of the owner of the coin. How are you supposed to know if someone placed a Franklin Half Dollar in a Wayte Raymond holder because they knew it would cause toning on the coin? You can't possibly know that, therefore, you can't use it as part of grading criteria.

    I find it hysterical that those who don't even show a basic understanding of the toning issue call other people foolish!
     
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Your own post is contradictory. If scads and scads of unethical jerks had the ability to fool the TPGs with AT creations, they would have already caused at least a partial collapse of the toning coin market.

    You keep saying how easy it is to make an AT coin that will fool the TPGs. But just like every other guy who has shown up on a coin forum with the same braggadocio, you refuse to prove your own claims. Nobody is asking you to artificially tone coins with the intent to defraud others. All I am asking is that you AT a coin, show us the before & after photo, and then use your world class lightening skills to return the coin to its original state.

    The fact is that it is not easy to fool the TPGs with AT coins, you can't do it, and you know you can't do it. If you had the ability to do it, I would be looking at photos by now.

    And as someone who has been active in the toned coin market for over a decade, I will tell you that toned Morgan Dollars constitute a majority of the truly monster rainbow toned coins and they demand bigger premiums than any other series of coin. Your exclusion of Morgan Dollars from this discussion is rather comical. Are you sure you don't want to exclude any other toned coins. How about tab toned Commemoratives?

    Btw, dipping coins is an acceptable practice in the eyes of the TPGs. Telling me that 100% of your dipped coins have been graded is not impressive, no matter what acid you are using to alter the appearance of your coin. I consider dipping "artificial untoning."
     
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'll bet you believe in the Easter Bunny too huh Paul ? Well don't worry, he's supposed to be around in about a week :)
     
  14. Maxfli

    Maxfli Well-Known Member

    Seconded.

    I don't get toning. :confused:
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's easy to get, it's pretty. I like it myself, a lot.

    But having known people who could recreate it at whim, having seen them do it with my own eyes, and understanding how easy it is to reproduce it with just a bit of knowledge and know-how - well, that kind of tends to make one think twice about paying ridiculous prices for it.

    That said, were I still collecting (and even when I was collecting) I might pay 4-5 times what an untoned example of the coin was worth. Up to a $ limit of course.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  16. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Firstly, I don't care for Morgan's at all, so why would I have them to tone or dip in the first place? Most of my dips are MS dimes, quarters, and a few halves. Also proofs of all types. Bronze cents are fun to monkey with, but the tones I get aren't very repeatable. I have seen, but not yet tried testing, wildly colored Sacs and Prez's, and a few of them were in PCGS plastic. The closest interesting tone I have on one of them I own is one of the January 2000 WalMart change given Sacs which is going an interesting green bronze color in a Saflip. The luster shines through the color on the surface.

    As for your tirade, I understand and sympathize. If I had built a specialty that some people started taking potshots at, which IS WHAT I'M DOING, it'd tick me off too. I am aware how fervently toned coins enthusiasts feel about their niche. Be aware I am somewhat of an expert in chemicals that affect silver, through over 25 years as a Certified Photographic Counselor and 20 as a member of the Society of Photofinishing Engineers. Making silver change colors is a subject that covers VOLUMES of photographic texts. Trust me.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  17. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    The "fact" is that you are obviously a sad angry little man because your pet niche isn't seen as real by many. And no, you would not be looking at pictures yet because the entirety of our conversation has been held while I'm laid up in a hospital bed ... edited
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2015
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  18. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    So if it is that easy to do why, if you were still collecting, would you pay ANY premium? This makes no sense would you mind explaining this? I'm not really looking for "I'm right and your wrong" statements or mocking. You can use that with the others when you have no references or links to prove what you say. I simply just don't see your post as consistent nor making any sense.
     
  19. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Vic,

    You obviously weren't asking me this question, but I'll answer for me. I would never pay ANY premium for ANY toned coin, UNLESS I were paying that premium for a reason OTHER THAN the toning.

    One type of toning I do fascinating are early 1960's proof Jefferson nickels, like yellow 61's and blue 62's. I am told these are due to trace elements in the mix, like cobalt in the 1962 batch.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  20. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    You never said it was totally easy and people can do it no problem, yet you would be ok paying a 5x premium. You were consistent.
     
  21. bkozak33

    bkozak33 Collector

    I seen a lot of major collection come to market over the last few years and they all include many toned coins. If you go and look at the top registry sets most of the coins are toned. Are toned coins a niche? Yes, But so what the coin market is full of niches.
     
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