Vic, I think the recent phenomenon of PNG pre-shows, just before ANA shows, may have the effect of "concentrating" rainbow toners to the specialists. I don't know, but I'm guessing based on how much dealer to dealer action takes place that everyone writes about. If I had run across some specialty item that I didn't have the clientele for, I'd shop it to a dealer that does. Is my thinking wrong here? I do see a lot of pretty toned coins get packed up late on a show Friday and disappear though. The guys who have them tend to have lots of them, and those who don't have a lot seldom have any. Jus' sayin'. I just figured they tend to go where they're most appreciated. I mean, if I'm jonesing for a 1951 Ultra Cameo Franklin, and Tomaska is around, that's where I'd look first, right?
I see no disagreement here. But at these shows there is not simply table after table of toned dealers. Again back to the math. For every hundred total dealers how many specialize in toning? I'm pretty sure we find ourselves with that same low single percent number that every interpretation and discussion brings us right back to.
Yup, that's what I love most about ANA show bourses - enough different specialties to match nearly any taste. In fact, the only kind of dealer that might be said to be becoming rarer and endangered is the generalist. The table rates at ANA shows gets a little steep for scattergunning, unless you have a "name", like Miller's Mint or Hallenbeck even. Tom does display some eclectic mix, doesn't he?
They make a lot of money taking photos of toned coins. Im guessing that of all the true views they have taken, a majority are toned coins. It is a heck of a lot easier to photograph a white coin then a toned one.
You've proven my point even further. There were still enough 'rainbow' toned coins even at the lower spectrum for you to be a dealer in them. Toning is easy. As long as the coin as a relatively original surface, albums, tissue, envelopes, even the atmosphere all produce toning. Toning is easy, it's available, and it's not some rare phenomenon. Ok. You say 1-2% surviving and Lehigh said 1-2% out of all slabbed coins. It can't be both. If it's the survivors then you have to factor how large the AU/MS pool is, and even further how many have original surfaces. Of those with original surfaces a large percent will exhibit attractive toning of some sort. Iridescent, rainbow, straight blue or purple, etc. If it's 1-2% out of ALL slabbed coins, then the number should be shrinking as moderns are currently outpacing any other submittal category. So the pool overall of graded coins is widening and yet 1-2% is the constant? Maybe there are tone doctors? Like I said. You aren't going to find a monster rainbow toned buffalo in the dateless buffalo bucket. I'm just here to show that even before the Internet that there were whole auction and auction catalogs with the majority being pleasing toned specimens. It was said to produce those documents. Doug produced teletrade and I produced 90s-2000s auction catalogs. Face it. Toned coins aren't so scarce that they can't be obtained fairly easily. And further maybe there is a possibility that there are Drs out there with the skill to fool all of us.
So you think that I don't understand toned coins because I haven't seen enough auction catalogs? And I know that those coins are part of the certified population. But very few of them are rainbow toned. Fine, we will look at the numbers for the series that is most common with rainbow toning, Morgan Dollars. The total certified E-Bay population of Morgan Dollar is 13,651 and the total number listed as rainbow toned is 664. After looking at the first 50, only about half actually qualify as rainbow toned or certified. So the math is (664/13651)/2 = 2.4%. Guess what, it still looks small. Again, we are not talking about the same coins. You are talking about ultra rarities that have mostly 4, 5, or 6 digit price tags. I have only ever owned two coins that cost more than $5K. The people who buy the coins you are showing are not people in my league, they are rich people. I never said I didn't see any. I said "barely any," "handful," and "very few." And the ones I did see barely qualify as rainbow toned. And yes, I'm looking at the coins you posted. What is clear is that you think that any hint of color qualifies a coin as "rainbow toned." The coins you posted are toned, not rainbow toned. OK, I will give my categorization of each coin. 214 5c: NO (Light peripheral toning) 232 5c: NO (Light pastel toning) 332 30c: NO (Monochromatic toning) 342 25c: NO (Your wasting my time with coins like this) 271 10c: NO (Monochromatic toning) 337 25c: YES (Barely-looks like a progression of 3 colors on obverse) 344 25c: NO (Monochromatic toning) 347 25c: NO (Brown and blue is not rainbow) 352 25c: NO (Mottled blue and violet is not rainbow) 359 25c: NO (Brown and blue is not rainbow) 361 25c: NO (Blue and violet is not rainbow) 363 25c: NO (Blue and violet is not rainbow) 355 25c: NO (Peach and lavender is not rainbow) The plate coins will always contain the rarest and most eye appealing examples. But what you showed were a whole bunch of rare coins with some toning. If the toning patterns that were on any of the coins you posted were on a Morgan Dollar, the associated toning premium would be very small if any premium at all. No, I want you to stop wasting my time with this nonsense. First, the coins you are posting are not rainbow toned despite your desire to call them so. Second, you are posting rare expensive coins that have no chance of ever being artificially toned and have no bearing on the bigger topic of this thread. Third, you are posting a ton of proof coins which don't tone with the same patterns as mint state coins and were stored much differently. We are talking about this: A rainbow toned coin is a coin showing vibrant colors that progress from yellow to magenta to cyan. Obviously, this coin represents the pinnacle of rainbow toned coins. If you need a better idea of what we are talking about, please read this thread: Rainbow Toning's effect on price Specifically, post number 13. All of those coins that have those descriptions are expensive old toned proofs. Again, they are not the coins we are talking about. And iridescent doesn't mean rainbow, it usually means that the toning will change appearance when rotated in the light. Sometimes that change means it basically disappears. Blue-green is just that, not rainbow. And if you don't think people use descriptive words on E-Bay then you have not looked at my coins. You are right, toned coins are easy to find, rainbow toned coins are hard to find.
Because it isn't. Read the description, mottled iridescent toning. You have some orange in the centers and some blue/violet at the periphery. There is no progression from yellow to magenta to cyan. This one barely qualifies with a 3 color progression. But again it is toning on a ultra high grade old proof, not at all what we are discussing. Actually, it isn't an "awful lot" it is a hand full.
And the people with toned coins need good photos to sell them. I personally need to find someone who can do good photos for my coins, not the partial job I can do.
I want someone local so I don't have to spend thousands on insurance. I offered to pay bob to come out here but he declined.
This is non-sense. As I posted several pages ago, we're not comparing apples to apples again. I will agree that strictly "toned" coins are not rare. If we're only looking at that aspect, you are correct. The toning on the coins in all of those illustrated photos is nice but common and not spectacular. It gives them character but I don't believe the toning on most of them would, in itself, be a primary driving factor in affecting their prices. Perhaps some. But not like the 1881-S Lehigh posted above. This is two COMPLETELY different topics. I own several slabbed, toned Morgans. A few I'm very fond of that I got from Lehigh. I don't believe they were created in a lab, or could be re-created in any way. Much less by simply putting them in envelopes or tissues for a while. I have some Morgans that were stored in a box wrapped in tissues for decades. They're just black. Again, I agree you CAN tone anything but what do you end up with? Can you control what you end up with? Or will it look like every other AT example? Some colors are very unique and rarely occurring. It leads me to believe the only way this happens is unique, unknown, environmental factors and time that create the truly outstanding examples which are rarely seen. Somehow these are getting lumped into the same discussion with every other toned coin out there by people who don't collect them. Quite possibly they don't even fully realize what is available because they are *rare* and they aren't looking for them. One of mine features an entire obverse that is a beautiful mint green with some yellows. No, pinks no blues, no purple. Why? I've never seen a Morgan like it before or since. My Battle creek's reverse is entirely a plum color with dark blues on the edges and fine neon green around the devices with full luster. The obverse isn't affected at all. Why/how did this one go that route? Why isn't it rainbow toned? Why isn't it mint green too? Why not yellow and red? Why does it have neon greens around the edge of devices? Another feature I"ve never seen before or since. Another I have that is very rare, with similar plum toning does not exhibit these neon green outlines. They weren't all the same within the same bags at the same location for the same period of time! Specific types are RARE. So some here think you can re-produce these exact affects on a whim by throwing it in an envelope or wrapping it in a tissue? Why don't I just throw a batch of them in a burlap bag and store them in my basement? Why isn't everyone else doing it if it guarantees a spectacularly toned hoard that would sell for a premium? If it happens so easily and fast? Why was the battle creek hoard unique? The same thing should've happened with all Morgans that sat around in burlap bags for decades. I wish some people would at least give Lehigh SOME credit as to understanding the toned market, being someone who has been actively engaged in it for over a decade. There is for whatever reason, some level of contempt and disbelief, towards rarer, high end toners, and we continue wasting time comparing apples to oranges. Lets try to look at this from a learning stand point more-so than as a personal attack. I'm sure some feel they have nothing left to learn, but there may be hope for others reading through. This thread needs more reading, less posting.
I like rainbow toned coins....as do many others. I have seen many pictures of AT coins and believe I can, for the most part, differentiate between those and others that are naturally toned. Is there anything more that needs to be said?