Beware of rainbow toning

Reasonable minds are certainly free to differ, and I admit that I have my own biases. I also don't claim to always be correct. Nevertheless, I think it is fair to say that I differ tremendously from his views and that we interpret information about coins differently enough that I am likely to want to view the "evidence" to draw my own conclusions. Others may opine differently.

On information and belief, here are a few of his positions espoused throughout the years in his prolific postings on this forum:

1 - Most marks on Morgan Dollars that are commonly referred to as bag marks are not really bag marks, but post strike damage cause by shovels/scoops at the Mint.

2 - Die breaks and die polish lower a coin's value, pretty much always. (I'm still looking for a citation on that one).

3 - The so called "repolished proofs" of the 1950s were NOT treated to enhance cameo contrasts despite Rick Tomaska's landmark treatise, based on (among other things) expert testimony from contemporaneous Mint employees, providing otherwise. Moreover, the Mint didn't care about cameo contrasts until the early 1970s without interruption.

4 - Scanners create images that are equal in quality to those taken by digital cameras (and presumably he meant DSLRs with macro lenses)

5 - A coin doctor can effectively duplicate any form of toning he wishes faithfully and make it look like toned coin you present to him.

Nothing in this post is meant to disparage anyone or their opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions just as I am entitled to my own.

 

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In the "I don't agree or disagree" vein, I would not find it so hard to believe that ANY auction house had a specific LOT of coins being sold that were all rainbow toned. But lets be REALISTIC. If the normal lot size on a given auction you are referring to had 10,000 items, the elusive rainbow toned only extravaganza lot had 100. Even if this was the case, I am ignorant because this impossible to find regularly occurring event unfolded for years without my knowledge? My company hosts a charity event that literally provides funding to save childrens lives. Did you know that? Did that mean it didn't occur? Because I have letters from a few dozen children and families that would argue it did happen. Its common knowledge to us. If you want, I can send you a link on the foundations history and activity, each with little offshoot links to pictures, videos, stories, etc. Maybe you could even contribute. It just makes absolutely no sense to me how you deal in such extremes and are so pompous with your hammer and scythe. The dark side I see in this one, power and control the Sith are always after.

 

I havent seen you here in awhile. That Canada Forever stamp I bought months ago has just been collecting dust on my desk.

 

I'm sure I'll get to it before the end of the year, or whenever USPS raises their prices again.

 

Lets look at an example. Here's a Battlecreek MS-64* I was eyeing all week.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1887-1-Morg...0Xq1M19exdh9x0QNKYlzg%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I haven't seen many that looked like this. This one really grabbed me. The seller wants $695. If it was listed for $100, I would've never had a chance to see it. Would've been gone. $200, gone. $300, gone. The seller knows he has something special. 13.5% of this hoard received NGC star designation which is an extremely high amount. And most of them, WITHIN that percentage, WITHIN this specific hoard, are nowhere near that nice. Even though most of them are impressive, there are standouts like this one.

The seller put a high price on it and it didn't sell. Apparently, it's the higher price range for this one because I'm sure many people saw it and wanted it.

For me personally, my comfort zone is the 2 to $300 range on these. I might reach and go 4 on that but that's about it for me. I wouldn't do it often. I just collect them here and there. Somebody else would pay more for this and that's fine.
I'm sure there's a large pool of people that would give 2 to $300 for that and a smaller pool that would pay closer to what the seller is asking. It doesn't mean the seller's asking price is out of line. In time, it will sell. I'm not upset that some will pay more for that than I will.

I just wanted to give an example and share what my thought process was on a real life example. Right or wrong. I would say that one easily falls within the 1% that are decent, highly desirable examples on ebay.

 

Then you have this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1897-P-Morg...546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9d21bbc2

The seller admits this is an AT, inexpensive alternative. He has 17 of these listed. They fall into the "rainbow toned" search. How many thousands more like this do? Most being sold as NT. And every kind of variation in between.

Ah! Then this, mostly blast white Morgan with edge toning, gets a "rainbow toned" heading as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1882-S-Morg...178?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cec3cbda


Wow! More "Rainbow toning" (according to the auction heading)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1885-O-MORG...283?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58c27a0793

Ok, one more and the point is made:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uncirculate...073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b0fdb4c39

 

This is why I said 1 of 10 coins listed as toned on eBay were actually toned to the degree they would get more then normal price. I just figured 1/5 to be conservative with my math. People lie numbers don't.

 

I searched this forum for coversations about your mythical toned teletrade auctions. I found a few random post about a toned coin someone purchased on teletrade, however i found no discussions about these toned auctions. Perhaps you can provide a link.

 

I agree with you, but I think we need to get people to walk before we teach them to run.

 

This thread is EPIC! It started as another pot shot toning thread and turned into a crazy debate that has been going strong for over 30 pages with no end in sight. This thread addresses so many topics related to toning that it might be one of the best toning threads in forum history. If a newbie reads this thread, they are guaranteed to learn a great deal about the subject.

 

That piece is way overpriced. $300 was a very, very strong offer. Moreover, who in the world tries to sell a $700 toned coin (particularly one with a value reliant on toning) with such mediocre pictures? Good pictures run $5 to $15 each with a good photographer.

 

There are currently a total of 10 Battle creek Morgans for sale on ebay. Only 2 of them have extraordinary toning and are priced in 4 figure range. No impressive toners in the current Binion hoard offerings or Lincoln. I did a quick search for Battle creek Morgans to see if I could find any more for sale anywhere. Got a few old auctions that were long since sold with no pics. I don't know where you'd go to browse more if you wanted one right now. I own one of them. That concludes my search for the low hanging fruit. Easily identifiable, high end toners.

So I moved on to a different ebay search. "NGC toned Morgan" to see what I could find. 1,264 results. Now I'm not going to take the time to go through it all, but I quickly scanned through the first two pages, being a total of 100 coins. Out of these 100, a total of 3 stood out as being decent. Only 1 of the 3 I'd be somewhat interested in purchasing but not enough to even put on the watch list. I'd say over 90% have little to no color at all. Of course, I did not search PCGS or ANACS, or name your company, but I suspect the results are the same.
Another factor in this is the likelihood that most good stuff is already sold and stashed away in people's collections. Not coming on the market any time soon.

I have to lean towards the conclusion from my experience poking around looking at Morgans over the years, that good toners are fairly rare. Id say this even if the consensus here was the opposite.

 

I wish I knew you were looking for Battle Creek toners. Here is one that I consigned and it sold on Christmas Day in 2014 on eBay:

(Now PCGS MS64 and designated as Battle Creek; formerly NGC MS64*)

 

It actually looked better on my phone. I tend to agree with you but these command a premium, likely due in some part to the pedigree as well. When the entire surface is covered and they have unique shades and strong luster, the prices are high. There's two more on there for 4 figures right now.

I think quite a few people would give $300 for that one. But yeah, $700 is pricing it high. Roughly 10x a standard one. High but not unheard of. Can't fault him for trying.

 

I'm not always looking. Just happened to be currently a bit. Would you be willing to share what the hammer price was on that one? Just curious.

 

It wasn't an auction, but an eBay Best Offer listing. My asking price was $2995 and it sold for $2500 (and within a week of listing - it didn't languish for months).

 

Beautiful example of a rare toned Morgan. I'd pay 1/10'th the "best offer" for an MS62 with the same color and luster, and I doubt anyone has one like it to sell!

 

Guy, I ever tell you about the time I found a dead fish in my backyard? It was just lying there, and I'm nowhere near the water-level, leastways not low enough to where a fish could jump in my yard. I figure an osprey picked it up and dropped the sucker. Either that or one of the cats took a fishing pole from the garage and caught it. But I'd hate to think that, because none of them has a fishing license, and that would mean one of them broke the law. But it was a big bass, must'a gone three pou-oh, you were saying?

Tell ya what, Guy. This is the first time you heard of the Red Book? And Doug is implying you're ignorant? Now there's a coincidence!

 

You might check the CU and NGC forums. They were real but it has been many years ago.

 

Wow. That's what you gathered from my post. That I never heard of a RedBook? Sarcasm is completely lost on you? I own a first edition champ. The post about the RedBook was satirical in nature, displaying how one can easily Google and verify what it is, unlike these elusive teletrade toned only auctions that GDJMSP knows about, and everybody "in the know" knows about, but no one can find. You should hang with the other doctorate who actually provided a www.teletrade.com link and thought he was the first to slice bread. When I read THAT response, I cried a little for humanity, kinda how you are making me all over again. I only pray your genes end with you and there is no offspring.

I think forum members should have to take a basic comprehension test before being allowed to join. We need to weed out the slower fish. For the good of the forum.