Beware of rainbow toning

Not many know about this anymore. I feel old.

 

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Why wouldn't you call them out if they are participating in these unethical acts? One may even consider it fraud.

 

Although your intent is commendable, such would not be acceptable on this forum. The forum does not want to be a participant in any resulting legal action ( and yes there would be such). You may think you are protected by one's anonymous status, but you are not the owner, with more legal visibility and responsibility. Use a different media that can be attributed to one personally. Jim

 

That is complete garbage, the entire post. I know full well that some AT coins reside in TPG holders. I have some in my inventory, and my collection. But what you are contending is that it is easily done. Furthermore, you contend that they can easily repeat any toning pattern on any coin. The fact is that if it were easy to create AT coins that can get graded by PCGS or NGC, you would see thousands of newly toned coins flooding the market every month.

Even the best coin doctors in the world probably have a losing record against the TPGs. And if what you claim is true, why haven't we seen an influx of target toned or bag toned Peace Dollars over the last few years?

 

I clearly stated no excuses. You obviously know how to dip the coin and reverse the process, so lets see your AT work that is going to get graded by the TPGs.

You don't need to divulge the chemicals used or your process. Just take a before photo, a photo of your lab, and an after photo.

 

I guess it is too much to ask for you to provide us with a photograph of a coin that you have artificially toned that resides in TPG plastic? Since you are apparently a coin doctor yourself, it stands to reason that you would not want to divulge the names of your cohorts.

 

So it is okay to libel people who sell rainbow toned coins on this forum, but it is not okay to expose those who are creating artificially toned coins. Are you a lawyer? I find it very difficult to believe that the forum or any member of it's staff could be held responsible for the opinions expressed by one of the forum members. I want to hear those words from Peter before I believe them.

 

I bet the truth lies in the space between where all the arguing is happening.

I believe there are those out there who can apply toning to coins and get the result past the TPGs with a reasonable success rate. I believe coins can be toned inside slabs (using hydrogen sulfide, for instance), because slabs aren't air tight. What I have more trouble believing is that specific toning patterns can be created at will or nearly so.

Natural toning happens when silver or copper meet sulfur. That's why I have no problem believing that people can artificially create some of the same results, because all you have to do is get some hydrogen sulfide gas in around the coin. By controlling the concentration of gas and the amount of time exposed, you can get different amounts of toning. And, maybe there's a masking method that can give some control over the patterning, but I'm less sure about that.

Because the mechanism is the same as that for natural toning (depositing sulfide on to silver), I have no doubt that this type of toning could be done undetectably.

 

I agree, Since I have a couple thousand dollars put away, waiting for a monster toned 1970-D Kennedy to come on the market. I and every other toned Kennedy collector have been waiting for years. looking at past auction results, I have never seen one in a tpg holder.

 

I guess they only know how to artificially tone Morgan dollars.

 

If you have to ask names you do not know these folks. This is not the place that I would hand them out. It's old news on the forums for those that lived it.

 

I haven't submitted any of my "darkened' work to a TPG, but I have submitted quite a few of my "lightened" work. Because my formula does not use nasty acids like hydrochloric or sulfuric, but only citric, I have never gotten an 'overdipped' looking coin ever, even if it was left in the solution for 10 minutes. The solution I use doesn't even harm fabrics, because it was designed for them.

To me, given the fact that people do what I consider overpaying for toned coins, I would consider it unethical to try to use my knowledge for that purpose. But, and this is key. If this non-professional chemist with over 25 years in the photo lab business can do it, I'm betting scads and scads of less ethical jerks ARE doing it. Therefore, to me personally, only extremely few toned coins are worth even a small premium, and NONE are worth a big one.

Sorry, but when I'm ultimately finished with my work, I expect the toned coin premium dependent market to collapse, once everybody knows how easy toning is to fake. And no, in this I'm not specifically talking about rainbow toned Morgans. They were created by a unique extraordinarily slow process. However, I bet a whole bunch of toned Lincolns are faked.

My track record on my lightened (dipped) coins is 100%, including both top TPG's. I still own every one I have sent.

 

Send him a pm or report my post.

You were wanting specific names, so where in the thread is a specific person libeled by someone saying they
Doctored coins and sold them unattributed as such?

 

After all your years on the forums, are you saying you don't know the names already? It's old news. You can call me a blowhard or a doctor or anything else. I don't care. I lived it and watched it happen.

Go to CU or NGC and ask for the names of coin doctors and see what you get. I'm sure it will not be a friendly thread. I would be happy to join those threads. Names are not important but it is important to understand that getting coins past TPG's is nothing new.

 

I have no idea who toned these but they happily reside in PCGS Slabs and are commonly considered by many experts to be AT. Others not so much.









Stories abound about how the Peacock hoard were ex-bank give away coins stored in sulphur rich cardboard holders in a slim plastic box in somebody's basement in Utah next to the hot water heater.

All are high grade IKE's and all are or were very expensive.

Supposedly, the toning process involved a plastic baggy and a can of Pam.

I own the last coin, the 1971-D in MS66, and paid a pretty penny for it just so I could have one. I've considered sending it in for SecurePlus scanning to see if there is anything that the scanner can pickup. This would answer a lot of questions but it could also cost me a fair sum of money as I don't think PCGS would reimburse me on the premium I paid.

CU Thread on the coins

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=146283&highlight_key=y&keyword1= IKE

 

I disagree. Some toning is fully reversible but some actually damages the coin.

 

The uncirculated Morgan dollars have a different surface type than the newer Peace dollares. Below is Morgan on the left, Peace on the right. 100X with a compound scope. Notice the higher peaks/valley ratio of the 'flow' lines on the Morgan compared to the Peace. Like very coarse sandpaper and the Peace with very low peak/valley ratio, very fine surface. When thin film sulfide from toning happen on the Morgan, there is greater diffraction ( similar to Fresnel lens), this doesn't happen on the Peace. Also why the 'wagonwheel' appearance on the Morgan appears greater. The Peace can be toned, but the toning will look much 'flatter' and on the coin surface than the Morgan.



Below is the same at 400X ( and these are true magnifications rather than the ones you see on ebay). It is approximately in the same area.



So there are good reasons why natural toning and artificial toning occurs more on Morgans. Peace toning is more general in color and underlying luster.

 

Ok, is there a difference in the 1969 kennedy and the 1970 d kennedy, that make the 70 d unable to tone naturally or artificially?

 

No one has at all addressed this point of yours. The absolute bottom line is if it were possible at this time it would happen at maximum speed. There is no way it can happen consistently. Sure some will sneak in but that is a minimum, and not the rule. if it was possible the market would be swimming in toned coins to the point people would want white coins again.

But this is an exercise in futility. No one you are arguing with believes in supporting their arguments with facts, facts easily referenced. Most simply declare they are right and you are wrong. Oh well. At least they seem to be reading your posts this time. You should appreciate that

 

Sorry, I haven't done them, I don't collect them, so I don't know. From what I have seen on other coins, is that toning ( either AT or NT) strength depends on the uncirculated surface the coin gets from the dies. And variation in preparation does differ, even among the same coin type.